Baritone Sax clef
What was the thinking behind putting the baritone saxophone in bass clef when the score is switched to concert pitch in MS2? I write and arrange for SATB sax quartet and much prefer the MS1 version where the bari sax stays in treble clef in both transposed and concert scores. Could we have an option in MS2 to keep bari sax in treble clef in concert pitch?
(PS: I note that the high-priced competition leaves the bari sax in treble clef in concert pitch)
Comments
Maybe we could add a "Bariton Saxophone (Treble Clef)" similar to what we did for Bariton Horn?
Seems using a plain treble clef you requite load of leger lines for this instrument? Could use a treble 8vb clef, maybe?
In reply to Maybe we could add a "Bariton by Jojo-Schmitz
A baritone sax treble clef option in MS2 would be great. You're right that keeping it in treble clef can involve a lot of leger lines if the bari sax part is fairly high on the concert treble clef stave becuase switching from concert pitch raises the note by an octave + a major 6th. However, generally speaking the bari sax parts I work with are low on the concert pitch stave and when I switch to the transposed score the notes stay reasonably within the treble clef range rather than looking like a flute part. Where necessary I can simply lower the transposed bari sax part by an octave to put it back in the range where it's needed to anchor a sax quartet bottom end.
In reply to A baritone sax treble clef by Peter B
I'm confused by this statement. It's the *low* notes of a bartione saxphones range that require ledger lines in concert pitch if writing in treble clef. The lowest note on a typical baritone saxophone - the written "A" below middle C - is actually the "C" two octaves below middle C, and requires eight ledger lines below the treble clef to write in concert pitch. The highest note a baritone saxophone can play without needing advance altissimo techniques is, in concert pitch, the "A" just above middle C. Ledger lines *above* the staff would never be needed writing at concert pitch for baritone saxophone in treble clef, only ledger lines below. And you'd need them virtually all the time.
First, you can have whatever clef you want - just drag it to the score. MuseScore automatically keeps track of the clef for concert pitch and transposed modes separately. This is a wonderful new feature over 1.3, which forced you to change clefs each time you changed views if you wanted to avoid excessive ledger lines.
I guess maybe your reason for preferring treble clef despite the ledger lines that result is that you don't read bass clef well? If so, then instead of the ordinary treble clef, you could switch to the same octave-transposing clef used for tenor saxophone - the treble clef with the little "8" below it. This automatically shows pitches an octave higher then the regular treble clef. It's still a lot of ledger lines for baritone sax, but not as many as the regular treble clef.
In reply to First, you can have whatever by Marc Sabatella
Marc, look at it the other way round. I write and arrange in concert pitch treble clef and then, when I've finished, I switch out of concert pitch to the transposed parts. Therefore, if I notate the lowest note for a (modern) baritone sax of low A in concert pitch treble clef, then when I switch out of concert pitch that note will be notated as F# on the top line of the treble cleff stave, namely an octave + a major 6th above concert, and staying as I mentioned within a reasonable treble clef range. If, on the other hand, I notate say a middle C on the concert pitch treble clef stave, then when I switch out of concert pitch that note will be notated as A above the 4th leger line above the transposed treble clef stave and not where a bari sax wants to be, so I would drop that note two octaves in the bari part.
Thanks for the other advice, much appreciated. I'd still like a treble clef concert pitch option though !
In reply to Marc, look at it the other by Peter B
As I said, you already have that option - just drag the treble clef to the score while in concert pitch mode.
But I think you might be fundamentally confused about how this works. If you are writing in concert pitch mode, the lowest note for baritone saxphone is *not* the A below middle C - it's the C two octaves below middle C! It sounds like you might be confused about the actual range of this instrument? The lowest note is A below middle C at *written* pitch, which is C two octaves below middle C at *concert* pitch. So when writing in treble clef at concert pitch, if you want to write the lowest note for the instrument, you need to enter the C eight ledger line below the staff. Then when you switch out of concert pitch mode, it will be displayed as the A just below middle C.
If you are in concert pitch mode and where the A just below middle, that's nowhere near the lowest note for the instrument - that's actually one octave from the *highest* note. And that's why when you switch out of concert pitch mode, it displays as an F# on top of the staff.
If you want to think of A below middle C as the lowest note for the instrument, you have to *not* be in concert pitch mode.
In reply to As I said, you already have by Marc Sabatella
Marc, I've been playing saxophones for 25 years. I have a complete set here at home - a sop, 2 altos, 2 tenors, and a vinatge (1956) bari. I run my own sax quartet and gig with various other sax ensembles including a semi-pro big band. I can assure you that I am not confused in any way about the range or capabilities of the saxophone and frankly I'm a bit upset at your last post. So let's just drop this and leave it there shall we.
In reply to Marc, I've been playing by Peter B
I'm sorry to have inadvertently offended you, but I think you misunderstood me. For one thing, I have no way of knowing anything about your previous experience. We have lots of people posting here who don't understand how transposition works at all - it's a brand new concept to them. And then there are those who understand the instrument well but don't understand how to use the software. I think you are in the latter category. From what you have described, it truly seems like you are not using the concert pitch button in MuseScore correctly, and I'd like to help you if I can.
In reply to I'm sorry to have by Marc Sabatella
OK, this morning I've picked an easy little tune and written its first few bars for SATB saxophones. It didn't take long and here's what I did. Create the new score and pick a key signature, in this case concert Bb to put the sop and tenor in C and the alto and bari in G. I then Put the score into concert pitch and notated it for the four instruments, see Trelawney_concert file attached. When I was happy with the score I came out of concert pitch, lowered the tenor and bari parts by one octave and tinkered with a few of the bari notes which I wanted an octave lower again, see Trelawney_trans file attached which is the finished score. So how is this misuse of the concert pitch function?
By the way, back to my original post, I read bass clef pretty well. It's nothing to do with the clef. It's just that I find it easier when writing 4 part harmonies to have all the instruments in the same clef, that's all. I used MS1 for this little exercise with bari sax in concert pitch treble clef.
In reply to OK, this morning I've picked by Peter B
In MuseScore 2.0, it works the same except that just after you created your score and switched to concert pitch, you need to drag a treble clef on the bari and tenor sax if you prefer to have a treble clef for all of them in concert pitch.
Note that in 2.0.1 we added a template for saxophone quarter that you might find useful. You could also modify the template and save it in your own template directory to have the clef you like in concert pitch mode.
In reply to OK, this morning I've picked by Peter B
The 'missuse' is the need to shift an octave, had you used a treble 8vb Clef, that would not have been needed.
In reply to OK, this morning I've picked by Peter B
Thanks for taking the time to post an example. The problem is actually quite simple, and not as bad as I feared: you entered the correct pitches in the first place, but you entered them in the wrong octave. The baritone and tenor parts were both entered an octave higher than you intended them to sound. That's why you had to drop the pitch an octave later, and why you needed to further drop some of the bari notes an *additional* octave on top of that. Had you entered the pitches in the correct octave in the first place, there you have been no need to drop the pitch later. But of course, the bari part would have been many ledger lines below the staff in the concert pitch version, just as I have been saying.
So, your finished transposed score is completely correct, but now press the concert pitch button and see what you get: tons of ledger lines in the bari part. The goal of the concert pitch switch is that you can flip back and forth and work freely in either mode. But because the bari part uses the treble clef in concert pitch mode, this does not work so well - you end up with tons of ledger lines. So if you want to work in concert pitch mode, you'd have to transpsoe everything up an octave again just to be able to work with it. You're not supposed to have to do that.
That is why we made the switch to bass clef for bari - so that you can enter notes in the correct octave right away, rather than needing to enter them an octave too high and then drop the pitch an octave later. And so that if you switch to concert pitch later, you don't have to raise the pitches an octave again to be able to work with it.
So as Jojo mentions above, you can actually get the best of all worlds. If you prefer seeing everything in treble clef, but don't want to see all the ledger lines in concert pitch mode, and don't want ot have to transpose octaves every time you switch modes, simply use the treble clef with the little "8" below it whiile in concert pitch mode. This automatically handles that octave transposition for you, so in concert pitch mode, everything displays an octave higher than it would with regular treble clef, and you don't get so many ledger lines.
You can do this already in 1.3, but then the clef stays treble-8 when you turn concert pitch off, so you have to change clefs again. The great thing about 2.0 is that it maintains the clefs separately. So it displays treble-8 (for any staff that is set up to use it) in concert pitch mode, but automatically switches to regular treble clef for transposed mode, and vice versa.
The treble-8 clef is used by default in MuseScore for tenor saxophone, since it fits the rangwe of that instrument very well. For bari, we elected to use bass clef, because even with treble-8, there would still be many ledger lines. But not *as* many as with regular treble clef.
Here is a version of your transposed score with those changes made. That is, I took your transpose score, pressed "Concert Pitch", saw all the ledger lines, then dragged the treble-8 clef to both the tenor and bari parts, then flipped back to trasnposed mode. If you open this file, it looks and sounds exactly the same as your version. However, press the "Concert Pitch" button on your score and you see tons of ledger lines. Press it on mine and you see very few in comparison, because of the use of the treble-8 clef. So you could be entering notes at their *actual* pitch and never need to be transpose up and down as you switch modes.