Dal Segno Variant
Hello,
the new "Segno Variation" in Musescore 2.0 is displayed incorrectly. In Musescore it is placed just like the normal sign. But actually it has to be placed on the barline, as you can see here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alternative_Darstellungen_f%C3%B…
Comments
That might be how the Wikipedia entry happened to display it, but I don't see any reason to assume that how it actually supposed to be placed. Do you have a more specific source for this? Since its *meaning* is the same as an ordinary segno, it seems logical that it should be placed by default like one - directly over the barline at the beginning of a measure. Elaine Gould's "Behind Bars" does not mention any special reason that symbol should be treated differently from the regular segno, nor does Sibelius position it specially.
In reply to That might be how the by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for your answer.
That the sign variation is placed exactly as the normal sign sounds logical, but is wrong ;) . I only found this german site on which you can see the sign too:
http://www.musikzeit.de/theorie/wiederholungen.php
An official statement about it is hard to find, since I know this sign only from some marching songs. I have some german march sheet music at home, in which the sign is placed exactly as it is shown on Wikipedia. Yes, its meaning is the same as the normal sign. The only difference is that this sign is more striking. And therefore it would be pointless to place it as inconspicuous as the normal sign.
In reply to Thanks for your answer. That by DerSebi96
Huh, I'd never seen this symbol used this way. I've seen it used as a secondary segno for songs with complicated roadmaps, and it is placed normally then. But I haven't seen that often, and probably not from a publisher I would trust.
It wouldn't be hard to accomplish this placement - we'd modify how it gets created on the palette to use custom text properties. However, there would be more significant issues with this, as there would be no allowance for the symbol in the spacing of the notes. So the last note of the previous measure and first note of current measure would likely collide with the symbol, and you'd have to adjust for that manually.
So even though there does appear to be some sort of precedent for placing this symbol in this way, I'm not yet convinced its universal, and given that it won't work very well to position it that way without more significant changes to the layout algorithms, I'm reluctant to make that change just to support this one specific use case.
Meanwhile, since palettes are customizable in 2.0 (once you create your own worksapce), you could create your own version of this symbol by adding a normal one, setting its text properties as desired, and copying it to your palette.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Since the lead developer of MuseScore (Werner) is German, maybe he is more familair with that particular usage and would be interested in take this on. I would suggest filing an official feature request via the issue tracker (or use Help / Report a Bug from within MuseScore) for this particular variant of the symbol.
In reply to Huh, I'd never seen this by Marc Sabatella
Thank you very much, that you have dealt with the problem. The layout problems that may occur with the symbol are understandable. I'm curious to see how the symbol behaves in the final version.
In reply to Thank you very much by DerSebi96
Music designed to be read whilst marching has the lines very close together. Could it be that this symbol was chosen to avoid having to place a very small segno between two lines? Thus you would avoid 1]not seeing the tiny little segno and 2]not mistaking which line it applies to.
In reply to Huh, I'd never seen this by Marc Sabatella
ISTR to have seen that segno in the SMuFL documentation as being placed on a barline.
I know I have seen it being used in real score that way too, and it surely weren't marching band scores.
In reply to ISTR to have seen that segno by Jojo-Schmitz
For sure, Jojo, I've seen it in a real score, too. There are examples in a collection by Bernhard Habla for cornet, trumpet or flugelhorn and brass band. But, although one is labelled as a "polka", I think that this started life as a Prussian march.
Alfred Ernst Ahne
Zwei Gentlemen
Polka fur 2 Flügelhorner oder Trumpeten
Funny segno is place across staves just before start-repeat barline
There is a slower piece:
Eugen Brixel
Fantastica
Melodie fur Flügelhorn mit Blasorchester
...But even it is suspiciously march-like. Remember, the modern (UK brass band and US marching band) concept of a "march" is something in 112 to 120 time (144 if you're a Gurkha). But...in 1817, Friedrich Wilhelm III Decreed that there should be a selection of proven pieces made available to the regiments and initially they comprised 36 quick (modern march pace) and 36 slow marches (infantry walking a long distance pace). This was then expanded to over 500 pieces from Prussian, Austrian and Russian armies and combined to form the Armeemarschsammlung (the Army March Collection).
Ah, well, B***ger. Just as I was getting into the this being all down to marches thing, I found a waltz using the same symbol:
Tom Dawitt
Verliebte Trompeten
langsamer Waltzer fur 2 trompeten oder 2 Flügelhroner
Anyway:
1] It seems that there is more than one piece with the alternate segno being used.
2] They are not all marches (advantage Schmitz) although a lot of them are and may have influenced their use in other pieces (tentative deuce).
3] It is being used instead of the "traditional" segno and not as an extra sign.
4] It may be placed instead of the barline or it may appear before a repeat barline but in all cases it fills the stave top-to-bottom.
5] In addition to covering the stave, I have seen a two-stave and a three-stave score where the symbol fills the height of the stave and is linked to the stave below/above but two thin, parallel lines.
In conclusion, I think that this symbol and its placement - on the stave and not above it - are worthy of consideration for inclusion in MuseScore. It should probably be treated as a special barline similar to the standard repeat barline symbol but with the jump properties of a standard segno. There is still place for another segno, of course, but where this is necessary then the doubled-segno symbol might be better employed.
The problem is now three years old.
I can´t believe that people are asking wether the alternate segno is used like musescore uses it currently (above the staff).
Honestly? You guys haven´t seen many sheets did you?
I´m playing in an salon orchestra. Each and every week I´m seeing very rare and old scripts AND I NEVER! saw the alternate segno above the stave! Never ever!
What´s the purpose of it? Does it make sense? NO!
The alternate segno is the best readable and fastest "teleporting" sign in the sheets.
Normal Segnos are hidden pretty well inbetween the system.
That´s why the (in germany locally) so called "saussage" (or serpent) is one of the best signs of all!
Using it as a normal "segno" is bullshit.
Yeah it might "work" but think of it and keep in mind having a complex script with many instuments ... hardly readable.... and then you got this distinctive Line going from top to bottom through each voice ... It doesn´t matter where you are "lost in an score" ... the "jump back" will be safely guaranteed due to the alternate segno!
You´re lucky having a mark like this!
If you ever played scripts without having seen them before ... this sign saves your as! (more effective than a normal segno does ... (that´s why there are weird lines drawn by hand ... which, by following them, lead mazelike, to the (normal) segno) ....
the alternate segno never was additionally hinted / highlighted with a hand drawn mark/ line/ pointer aso.
Guess why? Because it´s a perfect hint himself!
But it won´t work if musescore reduces it to a common segno!
And come on... the space inbetween the staves is redundant as hell. Ever placed a practice mark, a segno, a tempo indication, and a set description in one bar? Lucky you!
Combined with expression marks on high voices, a "lower voiced instrument" and a dynamic sign from above ... designing the script is really hard work.
So the alternate segno is a true saviour!!!
(God damn it!)
In reply to The problem is now three by Troubadix
You could stop swearing and instead enter this into the issue tracker, https://musescore.org/en/node/add/project-issue/musescore
Edit: thanks for #165681: Segno Variation ("Serpent") should be on barline, not above
In reply to The problem is now three by Troubadix
As mentioned, profanity doesn't help. Providing an actual authoritative opinion - specific recomemndations from a recognized authority on music engraving - is what is needed. I'm sorry no one else has managed to produce one in the past three years, but perhaps you can be the first!
Since you mention using very old music, it could be the usage you describe was more.commkn in.the last, less so today. We just don't have enough information yet. And for the record, I've been a professional musician for over 30 years, so yes I've seen a lot of music.