Additional pedal marking

• Dec 3, 2014 - 04:56

Additional pedal marking.png

This seems to be missing from the palette.

Should we add it?

Attachment Size
Additional pedal marking.png 20.9 KB

Comments

• Dec 3, 2014 - 05:48

Actually, it isn't missing - apply the third pedal, untick the beginning hook, add the symbol, then add the fifth pedal.

I wonder though:

Should we omit the second pedal? It seems possible to produce by amending the first (ticking the hook and removing the text).

Should we add symbol text to the third one and untick the hook?

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• Dec 3, 2014 - 15:49

The configuratlon in the graphic is easily reproduced by anyone familiar with options for editing the lines presently available in the Lines palette. In any case, it represents two consecutive applications of pedaling - i.e., two 'lines', not one - which the second post seems to acknowledge.

The simplest way to re-create that specific circumstance would, in my opinion, be to use the 'first pedal' followed by the 'fifth pedal' - changing only the end hook of the 'first pedal' from 90 degrees to 45 degrees.

If any changes are made to the Lines palette involving pedaling, perhaps adding an option that looks like the 'first pedal' but with a 45-degree hook might be considered. (I actually see no real need to omit or add anything, given that the basic functionalities are already covered and modifications are easily made.)

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• Dec 3, 2014 - 17:50

Anything is possible by amending things, but I think the current set covers the cases most worth covering. We could indeed add the "Ped" with 45 degree hook. My impression is that the "Ped" symbol isn't so often used any more by modern publishers, which is why I figured it good enough to just include the single representative. But it takes very little space to add just the one more, and since there is a plenty of historical precedent for this symbol (and Gould still uses it in Behind Bars), maybe we should add it.

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• Dec 3, 2014 - 18:59

I haven't actually used the 'Ped'. symbol in conjunction with lines, so I'm just now seeing that it is inserted using this tag:

< sym > keyboardPedalPed < /sym >

What would the appropriate tag be for the asterisk symbol that denotes releasing the pedal - assuming one wanted to enter it as the end point of a line?

Is there a list of available < sym > tags located somewhere for reference?

Edit: I just noticed that the 'Ped.' symbol created in this manner by a tag is punctuated with a period following the abbreviation, while the 'Ped' symbol in the Master Palette for symbols has no period. Also - they are inserted into a score at slightly different sizes; they are mismatched sufficiently that they cannot be used in tandem with one another.

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• Dec 3, 2014 - 21:51

Different sizes? I'm not see that. I added a "plain" line to my score, right clicked, went to Line Properties, added the Ped symbol via "sym" tags, turned off the opening hook, hit OK, and it looks exactly the same to me. I even dragged one on top of the other to verify they are pixel-for-pixel identical.

Could you describe more precisely what you are doing, maybe attach a sample score.

As for the asterisk: I don't know that we document a lsit of symbols, but FWIW, here is where the various symbols are defined in the source. You don't have to be a programmer to use this list; it's just a list of things you can type between the "sym" tags. Of course, it's up to you to figure out what each of these does (there are a *ton* of these symbols), but it didn't make long to figure out keyboardPedalUp was what we wanted here. Turn off the hook, mark the lin invisible via the inspector, and you can have that style.

I would say that you could then add it to your palette to have whenever you wanted, but this isn't working so well for me right now (Ubuntu). Anyone else having problems? Shift+Ctrl+Drag is creating a copy of the line on my score. I have a custom workspace, I have enabled editing, but even if I try dragging to copy to the palette, a space is create, but it isn't added.

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 02:39

Marc, you say "FWIW, here is where the various symbols are defined in the source' as though you're making reference to an attachment or a link - and I'm not seeing any.

As to the size difference I described, see the attached example. The pedal line in the first measure is from the Lines palette; the 'Ped' symbol in the second measure is from the Master Palette, Note that it is distincty larger, and that it is not punctuated by a period after the 'Ped'.

The file was created using Nightly build 7ed6b11 and Windows 8.1.

Edit: Here's the two symbols atop one another:

pedal size problem.png

I also repeated your own steps: " I added a "plain" line to my score, right clicked, went to Line Properties, added the Ped symbol via "sym" tags, turned off the opening hook, hit OK, and it looks exactly the same to me. I even dragged one on top of the other to verify they are pixel-for-pixel identical. My result was exactly the same as I initially described; the 'Ped' from the Master Palette for Symbols is distinctly taller than the 'Ped.' created with the 'sym' tags.

And one other thing: wouldn't people who use this form of notation prefer that the actual horizontal line be even with the baseline of the 'Ped.' symbol (as is shown in the original post of this diccussion) rather than vertically centered with respect to it (as MuscScore places it)?

Attachment Size
pedal sign problem.mscz 4.68 KB
pedal size problem.png 4.33 KB

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 15:10

I think I was misreading you before. I thought you were talking about a difference between the "Ped" on the line in the plaette versus what happened if you add "Ped" using sym tags to a line. I didn't quite catch the signaificance of the word "master" in your phrase "master palette". Now I see what you mean about size mismatch anyhow. But for me, even in the master palette, there is a period. I suspect I know why you might be seeing something different, though. It's probably about difference in settings for "Musical symbols font" & "Musical text font" (Edit / General) and perhaps your "Text Line" text style.

The "Ped" in the line - or anything added via "sym" tags - is being added at whatever size you have defined as your "Text Line" style but using the "Musical text font"; the "Ped" symol from the master palette is placed at a predefined size using the "Musical symbols font" (which is specifically designed to be used at that specific size).

So depending on your font settings, that could explain the discrepancy.

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 16:51

I go with Emmentaler and Emmentaler Text for Musical Symbols and Musical Text, respectively, in Style > General... > Score.

My Text Line style is FreeSerif 12pt.

Here's a screenshot of my Master Palette for Symbols:

screen capture ped sign.jpg

I found that if I change the Text Line style to Free Serif 13pt, then the 'Ped.' symbol in the line nearly matches the height of the 'Ped' symbol from the Master Palette - but the latter is a bit wider:

ped sign 13pt.png

Attachment Size
screen capture ped sign.jpg 259.01 KB
ped sign 13pt.png 3.8 KB

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 16:53

Ah, so I may have lied. I see in the lwoer right of your master palette, it is showing as Emmentaler. For me, by default, even with Emmentaler selected (as is the default) for my musical symbols font, this dialog displays Bravura symbols. And the Bravura version of the Ped symbol does have the period. If I change to Emmentaler using the drop down within the master palette dialog, I see it does not.

So apparently it is Bravura (or Bravura Text) being used when you add symbols via "sym" tags, and not your defined "Musical text font" - maybe because it defines a whole heck of a lot of symbols above and beyond Emmentaler. Although I thought it was supposed to *try* to use your defined font then fallback to Bravura / Bravura Text if the glyph is not present. Not really sure.

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 17:14

The Symbols dialog of the Master Palette displays Bravura symbols by default for me as well. I never understood why, and I never questioned it - but it's always required me to change to Emmentaler, which I do as a matter of course to 'match' the choices in Style > General... > Score.

I have managed to find the 'Ped.' symbol in the Bravura symbols set of the Master Palette - and again there is an issue of size. It matches neither the size of the 'Ped' symbol of the Emmentaler set nor the size of the 'Ped.' symbol that is part of a line.

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 17:22

Right, that much is as I said above: the size of the symbol when added from the palette is the predefined size for that font - always 20pt, I think. Whereas the size for markings added within text depends on the font size of your text.

In general, it's probably not going to be profitable to try to get an exact match this way. It won't play back anyhow. If you want the Ped symbols with no lines, just do it the way I suggested earlier - create a normal pedal line, possibly set the end symbol, then mark the line itself invisible via the Inspector.

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• Dec 4, 2014 - 17:26

That's just what I plan to do. Thanks for your help with this.

FWIW, though - after some experimenting, I find that the 'Ped.' sign in the Bravura set doesn't match the 'Ped.' symbol obtained via the < sym > tag after all even when adjusted for size. The Bravura sign is heavier in weight - most noticeably in the period.

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