Guitar Music Stem Glitch
I am using Windows XP SP3 and MuseScore 0.9.6.3. I am a classic guitar hobbyist trying to use this software. For those not in the know, guitar music is written on the treble cleft and transposes one octave down.
I am finding it impossible to enter in a second voice on the treble cleft. I carefully looked at the documentation under VOICES on page 33 of the manual. When I enter the top notes as described, pressing voice 1in the upper right part of the menu. But when I attempt to add a counterpoint voice under the first voice (having clicked voice 2 or even 4), I get no joy.
The top voice had 4 quarter notes in 4/4 time in the first measure. I then selected the first note while not in note entry mode, clicked the N to go into note entry mode, and then clicked on voice 4, attempting to add in a half note. It refused to go into voice 4, instead trashing the first two quarter notes of that measure.
Am I missing something? A few frustrating hours of experimentation, searching documentation, and asking on several forums has not helped. Is this program ready for prime time as far as classic guitar goes?
Regards,
AlanStan
Comments
You need to be in entry (N) mode before choosing the voice.
Regards,
In reply to You need to be by xavierjazz
With respect, Javier, it seems to make no difference whether I'm in entry (N) mode or not. It still refuses to allow me to choose another voice. Isn't the cursor supposed to change color with a different voice or something?
Regards,
AlanStan
Voices in MuseScore do work.
May you can share a screencast that shows what you are doing. That way we can give you instructions specific to you.
In reply to Voices in MuseScore do work. by David Bolton
Hi Dave,
I'm reassured you say voices work. If that's so, it's probably user error.
Can I upload a PDF with screenshots and explanation? I'd rather do that if you think it would be useful. I have Wink, a program for making an actual flash screencast, but I've only used it once or twice and that was years ago. It's rather a cumbersome task when one is not accustomed to it.
Please let me know as I'm anxious to resolve this issue.
PS:
I decided to upload a Flash file screencast. I also have a windows executable version. It illustrates the procedure I was following when I had this problem. But when I went to upload these files after going through a fair amount of effort, I found that neither SWF or EXE files are permitted to be uploaded.
I have ZIP'd them. It seems I can upload ZIPs
Regards,
AlanStan
In reply to Hi Dave, I'm reassured you by AlanStan
Tip for the next screencast: You can also use online screencast software such as http://screenr.com and many more. It doesn't require you to download software and the screencast is available online in one click.
In reply to Hi Dave, I'm reassured you by AlanStan
I saw the screencast and find out the confusion: click on Note Entry first and then select the voice you want to enter notes for. The cursor will also change color. As long as the cursor is blue, you are working on voice 1.
In reply to Hi Dave, I'm reassured you by AlanStan
AlanStan, MuseScore should not switch voice modes if you select a different note duration and you are in note entry mode. I don't understand why it does for you in your screencast. Here's a screencast of me doing what I believe to be the exact same steps described in your screencast: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/892408/voices.theora.ogv
If you go to Help > About in MuseScore what revision number does it say that you are using?
Are you able to enter notes in different voices if you select the note duration (half note) before you select the voice number?
Alanstan,
I'm a classical guitarist too. I was having exactly the same problem you are experiencing. The solution was :
1. Enter Voice 1 as you are doing
2. While still in Note Entry Mode use the left arrow key (in the little group of up, down, left, right arrows to the right of the keyboard) to position yourself at the point where you want to start entering voice 2 (or 3, or 4)
3. Now select the voice you want to enter. The cursor will change colour and off you go
It seemed counter-intuitive to me at first but once I got into a groove it's 2nd nature
In reply to Alanstan, by fatwarry
"While still in Note Entry Mode ..."!
In reply to While still in Note Entry Mode by xavierjazz
Yes
Hello all,
Thanks for all the help.
The problem, from my point of view, is in the documentation. It is not clear about the order of the steps to take. This can cause much frustration.
Writing manuals is exceedingly difficult because what's wanted is the ability to see things from the point of view of the novice. My suggestion for writing the manual is to try to do each step of a task and document it at each step. Then, go back and make sure nothing is taken for granted. As Fatwarry says, the procedure seems a bit counterintuitive at first.
It would be nice to see a tutorial specifically written for the classic guitarist, but I'm not volunteering to do so at this time.
Regards,
AlanStan
In reply to Hello all, Thanks for all the by AlanStan
According to your screencast MuseScore is behaving differently for you than it is for me. (The exact steps in your screencast produced the expected results for me but not for you). Did you work out what the problem was? Could you explain?
In reply to According to your screencast by David Bolton
Hi Dave,
The reason is that MuseScore acts inconsistently in this regard.
If one selects the voice before selecting the half-note value, selecting the note value sometimes causes MuseScore to flip back into voice 1. When I selected the voice 1 and then selected the half-note value, MuseScore reverted back to voice 1. If you replay my screencast, you will see that behavior quite clearly by monitoring the voice selection indicator at the top right side as I click the half-note value.
The cure Fatwarry suggested, which fixed my problem, was to select the half-note value first and then select the voice.
Oddly enough after trying Fatwarry's work-around, when I retested MuseScore just now to duplicate the problem, the program did not flip voices. So it seems MuseScore is inconsistent in its behavior, and I am afraid I found a bug. Fatwarry seems to have found a work-around, and until I saw your query, I just assumed that (in the words of the redoubtable Chairman Bill) this oddly counterintuitive behavior was a feature, not a bug, a feature that had not been adequately documented in the manual or help file.
However, your question seems to indicate you did not expect this behavior either. As this behavior occurs inconsistently for 2 users (Fatwarry and me) perhaps it is a bug.
What do you think?
Regards,
AlanStan
As a result of the problems I was having the "Voices" section of the manual was re-worded. If you check the online manual it now says to use the method I outlined a couple of posts ago. However, my Local manual is still the original wording. I guess that raises the questions "does Musescore ship with an up-to-date Local Manual?" and/or "how do I get an up-to-date Local Manual if I installed Musescore a while ago?"
But back the the discussion at hand, Xavierjazz expressed surprise that I was repositioning myself while still in Note Entry Mode and I can see that the way I'm doing it would be cumbersome if you've entered all or most of Voice 1 before you go back to enter voice 2. In that case it's easier to exit Note Entry Mode, position yourself by clicking with the mouse and then re-entering Note Entry Mode and selecting Voice 2. That also works for me but it's exactly what AlanStan said he was doing in his original post and given that I'm using the same version of Windows and the same version of Musescore it doesn't make sense that the result is different.
But to recap my findings the crucial point is that you need to position yourself at the point where you want to enter the 2nd voice by whatever method you prefer AND be in Note Entry Mode before you actually select the voice you want to use.
In reply to As a result of the problems I by fatwarry
Fyi, you can see who edited the voices handbook by going to the revisions tab: http://musescore.org/en/node/94/revisions
MuseScore always ships with the up-to-date manual. That manual is generated from the online version just before MuseScore is being packaged for the next release. The download link to the manual on the handbook page will automatically link to the latest up-to-date version.
In reply to First answers by Thomas
Thomas,
Thanks. I hadn't noticed the manual was available for download
I too have had some issues with classical guitar score. Am using version 9.6.3 on windows xp sp3. Have managed to resolve most of them except for 2.
1. When voice 1 has 2 eight notes beamed and voice 2 has 2 eight notes beamed that share stems with voice 1 but not heads, the beams are not shared so they appear as 16th notes.
2. In polyphonic music for the guitar such as Sor and Bach there are many examples of voices that share notes but have different durations. For example, voice 1 may have a quarter note while voice 2 would have 2 eighth notes, the first sharing the position of the note in voice one. I've read where this has been discussed but is there a resolution on how to accomplish this?
Cheers.
In reply to Classical Guitar Score by lionelthomas
1. You don't have to put two voices in this case. Just input chords. See Note entry
2. There is no problem doing this. See the attachment
In reply to 1. You don't have to put two by [DELETED] 5
Still have problems entering notes for voices. It is not clear where the note entry cursor is at any time. If I pick a voice and step through with the arrow keys it seems to jump all over the place. When entering in voice 2 do I have to enter rests when there is no note corresponding to voice 1. It would be nice if the arrow key just stepped through according to the time signature.
Your attachment works easily for quarter and eighth notes but does not work for half and eight notes. The heads are place side by side and not coincident as in your example.
When I enter notes in chord form as you suggested for problem 1, then the second note of the chord is not recognized as belonging to the second voice.
Unless there is something I am missing, this method of entry is not well suited to polyphonic styles of music such as Bach. It is sometimes very difficult to separate the voices without studying the piece of music.
Regards.
In reply to Voice note entry by lionelthomas
If a half note and eight note are at the same place, one being white and the other black it looks normal that they are not on top of each other no ?
Studying a piece of music to isolate voices or to find similarities seems to be a prerequesite and a good idea to enter any music on any music notation software except a drawing one. You can find Bach music in the demos directory of your MuseScore installation.
Another example, BWV645 for guitar : http://musescore.com/score/954
Can you give an example of a complex piece you want to enter ?
In reply to If a half note and eight note by [DELETED] 5
Thanks for the responses.
Don't think that complexity is the issue here. I would think that guitar players would want to enter the music in a similiar way to how it is played. Attached is Sor Study #5 jpg image and the midi file. When I import the midi file it gives 4 staves. It would be nice to be able to copy and paste a voice from one stave to another and add it to what is there. Currently the copy and paste replaces what is there. If we could transcribe all of Sor's 30 studies by Andres Segovia it would go a long way to showing that MuseScore can handle classical guitar music.
Best wishes.
In reply to Guitar music entry by lionelthomas
Andrés Segovia's works are not in the public domain so it is not a project that MuseScore could officially adopt. However, looking at the sample you posted, I don't see anything there that MuseScore isn't capable of.
In reply to Andrés Segovia's works are by David Bolton
What is the correct way to enter the first bar? When I tried to enter the 2nd voice eighth note it put it side by side to the half note and then beamed it to the 2nd eighth note.
What aspect of Sor's work is copyrighted by Segovia? I have several different copies of Sor's studies
Cheers.
In reply to What is the correct way to by lionelthomas
Here's a shot of me putting the first measure in.
Some notable things I had to do:
- Double-click on a note head, then use the left and right arrow keys to move the note head.
- Click on the eighth note head and set it invisible (uncheck display --> show invisible, if you don't want to see it in gray)
- Use all 4 voices
- Hide the rest in one of the voices
- Change the stem direction on a couple notes (type 'x')
Hope that helps!
@lionelthomas,
I'm a classical guitarist too and I struggled with voices in Musescore at first.
If you're trying to copy a piece for which you already have the music - like the Sor piece - I found that it's vital to establish how many voices there actually are in each bar - and it often varies from bar to bar - and sort out the durations of each note in each voice, rest lengths etc before you start entering anything. Us guitarists are so used to working from scores where a lot of rests are missing simply to keep the score readable, that we forget what is actually being "hidden" deliberately. (I wanted to "edit together" 3 versions of a piece as I wasn't happy with any of them individually)
I think I'm really just repeating what lacsonic and ceegers said but the point I'm trying to make is that Musescore will do what you want and it's worth persevering to learn how to achieve it as I think you'd have exactly the same problem in any score writer if you are not absolutely clear what it is you're trying to do before you start
In reply to @lionelthomas, by fatwarry
Thanks for all the great suggestions and help. I have made some notes on my findings (attached).
I would really like to see copy and paste to work better with voices, in the same way that exchange voices works.
A couple of things don't seem to work as they should.
Graphical edits of stems and beams are not copied by copy/cut and paste. It is easier to copy first and then do the graphical changes.
When a note is selected it changes colour to that of the voice. However, the stem belongs to the voice but the beam is always in voice 1.
There probably should be a better way of selecting notes that are behind other notes. Maybe selection could be done within a voice.
Nonetheless, MuseScore is a great tool and will make my life a lot easier.
Keep up the great work.