Chords (and other stuff) are moved when re-opening a file

• Nov 29, 2016 - 17:13

I set a piece up for printing - move chord symbols and text boxes etc. to where they don't collide and are most readable; print it and save it. WHEN I re-open the file later, the chord symbols etc have moved - not even to where they where originally. Doesn't matter how many times I do this they keep moving on me!

I am using 2.03 on win XP and Win 7 Pro

I'm attaching 2 examples; the first is a file that was prepared in 2.03 the second was previously in 1.3 and not really a problem - if we just have to change it once, I think that's OK.

Attachment Size
Example 1 Before.jpg 440.85 KB
Example 1 After.jpg 365.16 KB
Example 2 Before.jpg 269.22 KB
Example 2 After.jpg 255.83 KB
Chiquitita.mscz 7.43 KB

Comments

Can you provide precise steps to reproduce the problem you are seeing? How are you trying to move these chord symbols? No matter what I try, I can't get anything to go wrong.

The first thing I notice when is open your file is that all of the chord symbols overlap the staff, as shown in your "after" image. I then notice (via the Inspector) that they all have large manual offsets applied to them - ones that look very inappropriate. So the first thing I did was right click one chord symbol, Select / All Similar Elements, and hit Ctrl+R to return them all to the default position according to your current style settings.

That helped a lot. But I notice this puts the chord symbols higher than they really should be or would be in a score created from scratch, so I checked the style settings for your score to understand why. I see that the settings for your file are very far off from what the defaults are for new scores. Normally the vertical height is set to 2.50sp in the general style settings, the offset in the text style to 0sp, and the alignment is baseline. You have 0sp for the vertical height in general but -4sp for the offset in the chord symbol style, and bottom alignment. Maybe that has something to do with the MusicXML import, or maybe this score was originally created an earlier version that had different defaults, or maybe you changed the defaults in an effort to figure out the problem you were having?

Anyhow, I returned these to the standard values - no manual adjustments required whatsoever, and instantly almost everything is perfect. Just two collisions with voltas.

I then saved the file and reloaded, and everything stayed right where it belongs.

I then made two manual adjustments to fix the collisions as per your "before" image - lowering the chords under the voltas and moving them to the right. I did this by simply dragging them, but could just as easily have use the cursor keys or the Inspector.

Again, I save and reload, and all is still well.

Next I went back to your original file and tried moving some of the chord symbols manually, without first resetting positions to the default. I did this by dragging them one at a time, save, reloaded, and everything stayed where I put them. I also did it by first selecting a bunch of them (ctrl+click) and using the Inspector to change the position of all of them at once. Again, everything survived save and reload just fine.

So I assume you are doing something very different from me to move those chord symbols. My best guess would have been that you were laboriously dragging them one by one, because you mentioned being accustomed to 1.3, and that would really have been the only way to get the job done before the new features provided by MuseScore 2. But again, even when I tried doing it the old way it still worked as expected - it was just a lot less efficient than using the style settings or Inspector.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

OKAY!! That's a lot to digest and it may take me some time!

Firstly, I should say that the file was dated 2015/02/27. I don't know if it was on a previous 2.0 release. I try to keep up to date so there might be something there.

Secondly, This came up because your folk were asking for feedback and I gave this as an example of my experience level - which is still "novice" as far as music notation, I guess. So here is some background from that conversation.....

----------------
I've used MuseScore for quite a few years now and I would be pleased to help any way I can.

I am a rank amateur, I play a Yamaha 295 keyboard (haven't mastered my PSR 650 yet!) and I use the Auto Accompaniment mode. Mostly I am playing one-finger so I just use FAKE BOOK LEAD SHEETS.

I use SharpEye 2 to scan music and then export for editing in MS2. I usually have to add most chord symbols and correct the lyrics. S/E2 often gets things messed up with extra rests and stuff in the wrong voice. Some of which I can't correct and if all else fails, I print it out from MS and re-scan it.

I know this is quite different to most of your users and that is why I might have a different approach. For instance I always have difficulty with chord symbols re-positioning themselves when I read a lead sheet back in to edit/print. The latest version seems to be worse than 1.3 and I always have to move the chords to a position where they are readable again before printing. Also, re-positioning the chords is more complicated in 2.0!

.............................

Because I don't understand all the terminology, I may well have illogical spacing in my style. I am usually trying to fit the piece on a single page. So I would fiddle around till I found something that helps me do that!

AN ASIDE.. Feedback - I have great difficulty figuring out the STYLE parameters and would REALLY benefit from some more graphical explanation than I have seen. (Note to Self:- Check latest documentation) Also, we can't always see the effect of changing a parameter because it is over-ridden by something else. It would be nice to have some on-screen graphic that shows us what we're moving. Like maybe move it and then move it back. (but I know that's a lot of work, so maybe not practical), Another problem I have is that SharpEye often puts things in the wrong "voice". In the music that leads to extra rests which can't be removed - I just drag them to some area that won't print. I usually manage to catch chords and re-enter them and the lyrics don't really matter - I usually only have the first voice anyway. It is a pain though, it would be nice to seperate the voices and maybe even combine them sometimes. But really this is a S/E bug.

I chose Chiquita because it is one of the more recent pieces - so my expertise with SharpEye is improved and it also represents my most current expertise with MuseScore. Since it was created in MS 2, I had to move the chord symbols with "inspector"; though maybe do I remember another way? Maybe select all and shift/up-arrow??

Another thing you might notice is that the spacing between staves is larger - to the point where it doesn't fit on a single sheet anymore! Almost as if I had to re-apply the original style! Obviously the "style" is stored with the music so that doesn't seem to make sense.

I am going to try to follow your narrative here on my computer and I get back to you with the results - should be the same as yours, huh?

In reply to by franksk

Yes, I do remember that exchange (that's how I knew MusicXML was involved, and this might turn out to be part of the key), and thank you for posting the score with the problem! Now we just need to figure out what steps you are taking to move those chords so we can understand why they aren't working. And yes, I'd fully expect if you try *any* of the things I suggested - I described quite a few separate things I tried in an effort to reproduce your problem - they will work as well for you as they did for me. but even assuming you get to work by following any of those steps, we'd still like to understand what you were trying that *wasn't* working, because I tried *lots* of things and couldn't find any that didn't work.

2/27/15 was before the release of MuseScore 2, so your score must have been produced either with 1.3 or with an experimental pre-release version of MuseScore 2. That could also be part of the problem.

The Inspector is not the only way of moving things in MuseScore 2 - the methods that worked in 1.3 *also* works in MuseScore 2 (drag one by one, or shift+drag a multi-selection, although that's less than ideal). The Inspector is jut an *additional* way that is often far more efficient and accurate. There are other ways as well, including nudging with the cursor keys (another huge improvement of MuseScore 2 over 1.3 - many more elements can be nudged using cursor keys).

MuseScore 2 provides a number of useful tools for manipulating voices. See for instance the voice buttons on the toolbar (select notes, press vocie button to move them to that voice if there is empty space available), also Edit / Tools / Implode, Edit / Voices.

Yes, the spacing of staves is larger. i have no idea what you used to generate the "before" image, but it looks like it was maybe created with MuseScore but using different style settings. Again, the settings in your score are different from the defaults, and that is why the spacing is larger. Trying creating a new score from scratch and then checking out the settings for lyrics in Style / General / Page and Style / Text. Then copy those same settings to your score. Again, you must have either inadvertently changed them, or somehow they got set from the MusicXML file you imported, or they are left over from an earlier version of MuseScore.

Dragging rests offscreen is a definite no-no in any version of MuseScore. In order to understand why these rests are there and how you would need to fix it, we'd need you to start another thread and post the score you are having trouble with (probably the MusicXML file itself would be most useful).

Regarding style settings, there are obviously quite a lot of those. if you have specific questions after reading the relevant Handbook sections (yes, your note to self is good :-), feel free to start another thread and ask away. It's always best to use separate threads for separate questions, makes the discussiosn 8much* easier to follow.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Marc,
So, I think I understand that and I was able to follow what you did with the same results. That seems illogical! But check this out... When I go back and load the original file (to check the difference), it loads all messed up as expected BUT when I close it the program askes if I want to save my changes --- I HAVEN'T MADE ANY CHANGES!

So did it change something behind my back? That's what I was originally asking about!

And I would just like to set my style back to default right now - maybe that's my whole problem. i.e. Load the score, reset style to defaults, change to suit and PRESTO! DONE!

In reply to by franksk

Marc,

Couldn't fnd the XML for that but I have another one which I will send you under another thread - it's a good example of the Voice problem also.

I am beginning to go round in circles, Resetting those style params does seem to fix it. It may be a hang-over from a pre-release version (but I don't usually do that) or the XML. Don't know what other input I can provide. As I said before, I want to re-print most of my music over the next month or so. So if I come across any more clues I will be back to post them here.

Seems that I could fix it easily if I could re-set my style to defaults and go from there. I don't see that option anywhere - maybe you could send me a default style (I thought there was one included!!)

As Above, Obviously MS is changing something as I read the file in, because it knows that file has changed when I exit right away!

In reply to by franksk

It's normal that MuseScore 2 will prompt you to save any score created with an older version. The idea is, it has to "convert" a lot of older things to the newer format, so it already has done some work for you. That is basically what it is offering to save. It's up to you whether or not to take advantage of that.

I can see now that your score with the "messed up" chords *was* in fact created with 1.3. So, I opened that score with 1.3, and sure enough, it looks more or less exactly the same - the chord symbols are overlapping the staff just as they are in 2.0.3. And then they jump up above the staff as soon you do anything. Not sure what is going on here, but clearly there is a bug in 1.3 that causes the chords to move from the "wrong" to the "right" position. 2.0.3 seems to have fixed the bugs in that the chords don't move after loading, but unfortunately, that means they are now stuck in the "wrong" place.

So whatever problem you are having, it is *not* a case of edits made in 2.0.3 not saving - you had apparently never in fact saved that score with 2.0.3. In fact, it seems that whatever you did to that file, you did with 1.3, and 2.0.3 is showing you almost the exact same thing that 1.3 shows before the bug in 1.3 that caused the chords to jump above the staff inexplicably.

Aside from that, indeed, you will notice that 1.3 is able to fit the whole chart onto one page whereas with those same settings, 2.0.3 does not. Comparing the two, I can see that the main difference is the amount of space between the staff and the lyrics. 2.0.3 uses different settings to control this than 1.3 did - and 1.3 unfortunately had numerous bugs and limitations that caused it to ignore some settings that had been made. Now that 2.0.3 honors these settings more completely/correctly, it can sometimes happen that a score made in 1.3 will look different in 2.0.3, so you might need to weak the settings manually.

For this score, 1.3 is actually placing the lyrics closer to the staff than it should have based on the style settings, whereas 2.0.3 is honoring the style settings more literally. Quickest way to get 2.0.3 to look more like 1.3 on this score - set "Style / General / Page / Lyrics top margin" to 0sp. It's a little more complicated than in reality - 1.3 was actually more or less completely ignoring the vertical position set in the text style setting and instead *only* honoring the top margin in the general style. But there's no way to get 2.0.3 to reproduce that particular 1.3 bug, so instead of literally copying the same settings, think more in terms of the end result you want.

More generally, style settings are per score. This particular score has style settings that are a combination of whatever 1.3's defaults were, whatever it imported from the MusicXML file, and whatever changes you made. To reset all of that to stock 2.0.3 settings, simpelst would be to create a new score (or use "My First Score"), then go to Style / Save Style and name it "default.mss". Then use Style / Load Style to load those settings into your score.

However, to get those style changes to take effect on your existing lyrics, you'll have force MuseScore to apply those settings by right clicking one lyric, Select / All Similar Elements, then pressing the "Reset Text to Style" button in the Inspector. One of the great new features in MuseScore is that normally, when you change a text style, it takes effect immediately, but this won't apply to text elements originally created in 1.3, because 1.3 lacked that facility and was unable to prepare these lyrics for the auto-update. That's basically what the reset button does for you.

If you do this with your score, you'll see the default lyric size is much larger than what you were using in 1.3, and that will prevent it from fitting on one page. So right click any lyric, Text Style, and set it to 7 like you had it before. but there are other settings that also differ between the 2.0 defaults and the various customizations you had apparently performed to get it to all fit on one page, so you'd have to redo some of that way. Biggest is that you had reduced the staff size to 1.7sp. Repeating just those two settings is almost enough to make it fit again in 2.0, but there's at least one other setting you'll need to tweak: you had reduced the vertical frame lower margin (in Style / General / Page) to 1sp to redocue the space between the title frame and music, and you'll want to redo that in 2.0 as well, or use the Inspector to override that default.

Make just those few changes and it looks more or less like it should.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Thanks marc,

That'll work! As you can see, my knowledge has been improving over the years. So I don't really mind having to re-format as long as I know it will be correct and not waltz about on me.

I struggled with styles and had several - in the end I wasn't sure what any of them really did. That idea to create a Default sounds like it will get me back to where I need to be. Seemed like I always "inherited" something from a previous style - at the very least it gat everything the same - and a good time to do it as I need to reprint most of my stuff.

I thought I had tried to read that file in 1.3 and it didn't recognise the format??? Maybe there is something else going on here. My 1.3 is on an XP machine that won't accept the latest Java updates - don't know if that makes a difference?

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Same file - different copy! Maybe a problem on the old machine. Yeah, I did upgrade for a reason - finally figured out that there was a problem with the disc controller. So NOT exactly the same file - just a previous copy.

Can't seem to progress any further on this problem so I will post again if I come across better information.

Thanks marc

In reply to by franksk

You're welcome!

Aside from the question of the possibly-moving chords - and the the fact that I see them move even in 1.3 suggests that there *is* a bug somewhere - there is also the question of how you are moving the chords. You mentioned something about this being harder in 2.0.3, but I am still not understanding this. MuseScore 1.3 provided the following methods:

1) dragging chords one at a time
2) using Text Properties to change the offset
3) making a multi-selection (via ctrl+click or shift+drag) and then dragging them together

Those were the only methods I know that actually worked correctly. You could also try changing the offsets in the text style but this had erratic results, often resulting in chords appearing in one place but then somewhere else after a save & reload. You could also use the left and right arrow keys, but this only worked while in edit mode, and up and down were not available.

In 2.0.3, those exact same methods are available (except the Text Properties method is replaced by the Inspector, which is much easier because you can simply leave it up which moving the chords rather than needing trial and error constantly opening and closing the dialog). But in addition, the following new methods are available that did not work in 1.3:

4) arrow keys to nudge in any direction (and no need to enter edit mode)
5) Style / General / Chord Symbols, allows you to set default height for all chords, takes effect immediately
6) Style / Text / Chord Symbol, allows additional offsets (vertical and horizontal) and alignment options for all chords, takes effect immediately (partially available in 1.3 but did not correctly affect existing chords)
7) ability to assign a custom text style to selected chord symbols via the Inspector, making it easy to have alternate chords in small print above the standard chords, for instance

In addition, 2.0.3 provides additional ways to do multiselect that were not available in 1.3, making it easier to select groups of chords to then move. For example, selecting a region then right clicking a chord, Select / All Similar Elements in Range Selection, is an extremely useful way of selecting a group of chords that might take longer to get via ctr+click or be impossible to get via shift+drag.

So I'm not sure how you were accustomed to moving them in 1.3 or how you are trying to do so in 2.0.3, but whatever you were doing in 1.3 should still be possible (except as noted Text properties is replaced by the superior Inspector) and augmented with additional options as well. Plus the options for *entering* chord symbols got much better, with a parser that understand virtually anything you type plus more options for navigating from chord to chord.

There really should be no respect in which anything about about chord symbols got worse. So if you're still thinking there is something that seems harder, please explain in more detail. It's certainly possibly I am overlooking something, but I strongly suspect it will turn out to be a simple misunderstanding.

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