Voltas before D.S. al Fine Jump
The attached test score was modeled after a published song that used "D.C. al Capo" and 2 Voltas. Originally, the Refrain was followed by 1 of 4 Verses, and all Refrains played through the 1st -ending, except the Final time. This test was expanded (as attached) using D.S. with only 3 Verses and an extra Volta to try to isolate what was happening. Not much help except to confirm the following:
Can you explain why the repeat count for the Voltas never increments (only the 1st--ending ever plays). As a result the 3rd-ending with the "Fine" never plays. MuseScore knows each of the Voltas, since playback skips the middle and final Voltas as expected. The "Repeat list" for each Volta is identical to the text on the left side of each Volta bracket. Shouldn't the Voltas keep a running count of ALL the plays through them, and NEVER reset?? Looks like "Jumps" do NOT behave like "Repeats", is causing this problem??
Also, the "D.S. al Fine" in the final measure only runs twice. If the D.S. or D.C. (in any of their forms) are encounter once, twice, or ten times, they should ALWAYS do what they are defined to do––namely "Repeat from...". Correct??
Please help.
| Attachment | Size |
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| Test_DS_al_Fine_in_v3.2.3.mscz | 8.79 KB |
Comments
Voltas are alternate endings for repeats, but you don't have (end) repeat barlines
In reply to Voltas are alternate endings… by Jojo-Schmitz
I understand the typical Repeat Barline usage of Voltas. In this case the Refrain (with the Voltas) is repeated 4 times using the D.S. al Fine. This is not uncommon usage. As I said in the original post, "Looks like "Jumps" do NOT behave like "Repeat Bars", is causing this problem".
Just because the repetition is caused by a D.S./D.C. instead of an End Repeat should NOT prevent the Voltas from working. Anyone looking at the score (or the original published song) would know how to play this, but MuseScore will not. Can MuseScore support this form of Volta repetition?
Also, you did not address why D.S. stops after 2 plays of its measure with NO "Fine". In this test case, if working properly, the D.S. measure should play 3 times. Even if the D.S./D.C. measure needed to support a Play Count, that would be better than not supporting more than 2 plays. But the Play Count should not be needed since D.S./D.C. implicitly says "Play Forever Until Stopped".
In reply to I understand the typical… by Do Re-Mi
The D.S. al Fine never reaches the Fine as that is in the 4th volta, but there never is a 4th round of repeats
In reply to The D.S. al Fine never… by Jojo-Schmitz
Exactly, so the D.S. should play "forever"!! Why does it stop on the 2nd encounter?
See further discussion and example under reply to Jm6stringer.
In reply to Exactly, so the D.S. should… by Do Re-Mi
Because there is no 4th round, as there are no repeat barlines. There is just one, and then the jump. Jumps are only taken once, (on the last round of repeats)
In reply to Because there is no 4th… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thank-you!! Thank-you!! Thank-you!!
Final some discovery of UNdocumented DS/DC jump behavior (namely jumps taken once on final repeat).
I can see why this might be desirable behavior inside repeats, but it really does go "counter" to the DC/DS definitions to "always" jump. MuseScore should NOT assume that the user wants this DC/DS behavior in ALL cases. BEST would be to allow the user to enable (or disable) this behavior with an Inspector checkbox or a popup menu if multiple choices.
With this NEW info from you of the MuseScore limitations (Voltas only sequence in Repeat Bars, and DC/DS jumps only happen once), I was able to craft a solution I wanted, having DC al Fine sequence the repeats and the Voltas. Naturally with these limitations, the solution is visually correct, but faked within MuseScore.
The attached score shows the desired visual score to match the published song. This is followed by a detailed description of the element in the MuseScore solution and a playable score.
What is the best way to see if my suggested conclusions (at end of the score details section) can be implemented in MuseScore?
Short-term, those 2 UNdocumented limitations should be BROADLY COMMUNICATED as soon as possible. I gave up on MuseScore almost a year ago because of the unpredictable behavior of DC/DS jumps and Voltas. I am sure I am not the only one frustrated with this up to now. Better communication of the restrictions and limitations of all features is essential to having satisfied users.
In reply to Thank-you!! Thank-you!! … by Do Re-Mi
OK, I've added
Note: Jumps are taken only after all simple repeats are done.
to https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/repeats-and-jumps
But for Voltas this behavoir is documented already in https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/voltas :
Volta brackets, or first and second ending brackets, are used to mark different endings for a repeat.
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeat_sign
In reply to OK, I've added Note: Jumps… by Jojo-Schmitz
To get the right context, I would recommend it be more explicit:
Note: Within Repeat Bars, jumps are taken only after all simple repeats are done.
Regarding Volta Brackets, sections can be repeated by jumps as well as repeat bars. So this should explicitly say "used to mark different endings within repeat bars, and will not work if repeated using DC/DS jumps." The exclusion of jumps MUST be explicit (in my opinion) in your handbook. That change alone would have saved me almost 8-hours of reading, experimenting, and posting.
The important question is how to get this changed in MuseScore to support Voltas sequenced by jumps. As I have said before, this is not uncommon music methodology. With longer music sections, sequencing them using jumps is the preferred technique, as opposed to repeat bars for shorter loops. Often, these larger repeats will have Voltas that need to work. The steps I had to take should not be required and using Repeat Bars across multiple pages would be frowned upon.
In reply to To get the right context, I… by Do Re-Mi
that Within Repeat Bars would be wrong, jumps are taken after repeats, period
that within repeat bars, is superflouos/redundant (but I just changed it to "simple repeat" and a hyperlink to the Jumps and Repeats page) and that and will not work if repeated using DC/DS jumps. is plain wrong, you can set jumps to take repeats (but indeed by default they don't and play the last round of any repeats on the way and this is documented exactly that way).
In reply to Thank-you!! Thank-you!! … by Do Re-Mi
*I can see why this might be desirable behavior inside repeats, but it really does go "counter" to the DC/DS definitions to "always" jump. *
That is not the definition of a DC/DS jump. It is not a "MuseScore-thing" but how that music instruction works:
A jump is only taken once unless explicitly stated otherwise and only on the final regular playthrough of that measure.
That's how music works.
In your attachment: Test DS al Fine in v3.2.3 you wrote:
"Refrain followed by one of the Verses should play 3-times, then play the Refrain a 4th time with the 'Final' ending".
OK... how's this?
Test_DS_al_Fine_2.mscz
(In your original post you mention 4 verses, though now you only require 3?)
In reply to In your attachment: Test DS… by Jm6stringer
Thanks for trying a Coda alternative to my score. I just used 3 verses to simplify it while trying to get DS/DC alternative to work without success.
Questions about "Test_DS_al_Fine_2.mscz":
Q1. How is the DC al Code ignored until the final repeat?
Q2. Are all "jumps" ignored this way in Voltas? What else has hidden priorities like this?
Q3. Is this behavior documented anywhere?
Comment on "Test_DS_al_Fine_2.mscz":
C1. The repeated Test Refrain should be the 2 half notes (C then G)
C2. For this Coda version to perform like the original, the ENTIRE Refrain (16–20 measures in the actual score) would have to be at the beginning. The Volta would only contain repeat Play Counts and the final Refrain jump. But this Coda method eliminates the other ending variations between the Refrain and the Verses (namely the middle Volta in the test score).
>>> My original purpose for doing this in MuseScore was to transpose a published song for our pianist and to use the playback so others (singers, etc.) could use the mp3 for self-practice. The purpose of my post was to find out why the structure used in the published song would NOT work in MuseScore. It is expected that the song will be played in both keys, one key transitioning into the other. So having the transpose structured like the published version is desired.<<<
Hear are my conclusions (please offer corrections or comments):
N1. MuseScore does NOT support Volta PlayCounts repeated by DS/DC jumps, only by using an End Repeat Bar. Our pianist (and most musicians) know how "D.C. repeated " Voltas are to be played.
N2. D.S/D.C... jumps have no user control over Repeat Counts, and do not always play as defined.
N3. Maybe the D.S/D.C... behavior is the result of an "error"(??) in the score, or trying to prevent an "infinite" unroll, or a result of a software bug. By not having a way to give users feedback or error reports about playback, users can only guess why the expected behavior does not happen. So is the bad playback a result of a score entry error, or a bug, or a missing feature? Please provide some way of giving users error reports about playback.
N4. See one more example (Test2 attached) of D.S. behavior not being predictable. I can guess why this happened in this case, but with a more complicated score, playtime feedback would be VERY welcome. In this new score, the final measure (AFTER the D.S...) should NEVER play, but it does because the D.S. failed to jump the second time!! MuseScore should NEVER behave counter to the definitions for the elements in the score. In this case, playback should STOP, ideally on the measure (highlighted) with the potential error and some detail about why playback failed.
In reply to Thanks for trying a Coda… by Do Re-Mi
You wrote:
In this new score, the final measure (AFTER the D.S...) should NEVER play
OK... so why include it at all?
In reply to In this new score, the final… by Jm6stringer
As you probably have guessed, I am experimenting with DC/DS jumps and Voltas to try and discover why their behavior is not as expected. To do this I will use a test score to get visibility into behavior. In this case, since my D.S. was stopping right at the D.S. Adding the final measure after the D.S., proved to me that D.S. was jumping only ONCE, instead of an UNconditional jump "always" as defined. If D.S. always jumped the final measure would be an orphan and never play, but it played right through the D.S. and stopping after the "orphan" measure. So ONE UNdocumented behavior discovered!!
Interaction through this post have revealed 2 other UNdocumented limitations/features.
2. Voltas do not sequence unless inside Repeat Bars, and
3. DC/DS jumps within Repeat bars ONLY jump AFTER the final Repeat Play Count
Now with knowledge of these 3 previous unknown behaviors, I could try to solve my original goal of getting Voltas to sequence by using a DC al Fine. This solution worked––although faked within MuseScore, it looks the right way on the printed score. For this solution and detailed description, see my last post under the Jojo-Schmitz discussion (earlier in this thread).
Thanks for your help along the way.
In reply to As you probably have guessed… by Do Re-Mi
Well, voltas by definition are alternative endings of repeats. And this is documented in the handbook, see also above.
Jumps being taken after the last repeat is standard music notation behavoir. And now also documented in the handbook too