Key Change in Transposition

• Jan 3, 2015 - 05:55

In the attached score I want to change the treble clef key for a Bb instrument. I select all the measures in the treble clef, open the dialog box to transpose, select Eb. When I click OK, the key stays at Db. I must be doing something wrong. I've done lots of transposition with MuseScore but none with a bass clef.


You don't say which version of MuseScore you are using. I can see it is some sort of pre-release 2.0 build, but which?

Anyhow, this score is very odd in that has a key signature on one staff but not the other - was that intentional? That should not happen by accident, nor should it have been necessary or desireable here. So when you change keys, it is using the top staff to decide what key to change in. You will still have different keys in each staff; the other staves will just be transposed by the same interval.

There may be a bug here, though, in that the top staff is not transposing the key - only the bottom. There was a bug like this fixed a while back - see #31571: Adding transposing instrument to a score in C yields no key signature - but I guess there are still issues, as I am able to reproduce this (with some effort) in a score created from scratch. I will file it once I have narrowed it down a bit more.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I am using Ver. 2.0 Beta2.

Ironic you should mention the key signature missing. I really didn't notice it until after I posted the score. This happened somewhere during the transposition.

I transcribed Wes Montgomery's version of this tune.

See the final two scores. One for C instruments and one for Bb instruments.

Using the staff properties to create a different key for treble clef worked really good. The only modifications were eliminating the double flats.

Attachment Size
Midnight Mood 4-4.mscz 27.54 KB
Midnight Mood 4-4(Eb).mscz 27.56 KB

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I'm relatively new to music and very new to Musescore, but I think this could be a bug and not a new user error. Using v2 beta 2. I'm trying to transpose some downloaded music files into parts for my daughter learning clarinet and me learning piano.

I get different results depending upon the source file. I'm using exports from noteflight. If I import a midi file, then try to transpose, the notes change, but the key signature does not. If I import a MusicXML file, then the key signature changes. In both cases, I'm trying to transpose from Db major to C major, and the "transpose key signatures" checkbox is checked. In the .mid file case, all 5 flats remain in the key signature.

Attachment Size
Chandelier_Flute.xml 485.52 KB
Chandelier_Flute.mid 10.7 KB

In reply to by we9v

Hmmm, I think you are right about there being a bug here. If I import the XML file, select all, and transpose to C with key signature option selected, the key signature is transposed too. But if I import from MIDI, it is not. On the other hand, if after importing the MIDI, I then manually drag a new Db key signature on top of the the original one - which has no visible effect - then transpose works correctly.

I think somehow the key signature was not set up properly on import. I will submit an official bug report on this - thanks for pointing it out!

I'm having what appears to be this same bug, in 2.0.1 revision b25f81d.

The problem is happening with scores created by importing MIDI files, then editing them. When I try to assign a key signature for a transposing instrument, e.g. for a trumpet, the key signature I get is not the one I asked for. The only way I can get it to do it right is by assigning the corresponding key signature using the Concert Pitch button, then switching back, or picking the key signature as though I wasn't using transposition.

For example, if I'm looking at a Bb trumpet tune, without the Concert Pitch button pressed, and I want to give it F (one flat) as the key signature, I can't just drag the key signature I want to the first bar - I get G instead (one sharp). I can drag Eb instead (3 flats), which then gives me F (one flat), or I can switch to concert pitch and do the same, which shows me Eb, which at least makes more sense - and changes to F when I turn off the Concert Pitch button.

This thread appears to say that the bug I'm experiencing was found and fixed. If so, it's back...

Maybe I've misunderstood the first post, and should find or start another thread about this bug? The concept of what's wrong is simple enough, but I'm having trouble finding suitable words to search for a thread about it.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

No, the bug discussed here is different. What you are seeing is perfectly normal. When adding a key signature, it affects *all* staves - for transposing and non-transposing instruments alike. Therefore, you have to add the correct concert pitch key signature regardless of whether concert pitch is on or off. If it is off, MuseScore will perform the necessary transposition for you staff by staff so each staff gets the correct key signature.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I see. That's counter-intuitive, to say the least.

I want to be able to set key signatures in the context that I'm using them in. E.g. using Bb transposition for a trumpet, or Eb transposition for an alto sax. I expect to be able to drag the key signatures I see on the palette to the score, and have them appear like that on the score.

E.g. if I'm editing a score for a trumpet and I want F as the key signature, I don't want to have to select Eb. If I want F for an alto sax, I don't want to have to select Ab. It makes no sense from the point of view of the user. Can I make it do what I want and expect to happen, or am I just stuck with what the programmers decided was easiest?

I don't remember having this problem before switching to 2.0.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

It's counterintuitve only if you are thinking you will only ever be working with scores for a single instrument. But that is pretty unusual. More often, one works with the full score - say for a full big band, or orchestra for that matter. Again, adding a key signature adds it for *all* staves. You certainly would not want dragging an F key signature to literally add an F key signature for piano, trumpet, alto sax, and French horn. MuseScore *has* to make the appropriate adjustments or you will get the wrong key signatures. It's not about what the programmers think is easiest - it really is with the user in mind. As a user, surely you don't wna the same "F" major key signature add to all those instruments - that would clearly be wrong.

You didn't have this "problem" before because MuseScore wasn't smart enough to add key signatures to all staves at once. If you had a score for a big band, you had to painstakingly add key signatures to each of the 17 staves one by one, and work out for yourself what the appropriate transposition was for each. The new way is *much* easier - you only need to add the key signature once and it is added automatically to all staves. It's a *huge* advance in usability over needing to do it 17 different times. But in order for thisto be possible, you have to let MuseScore transpose for you.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

What I want, ideally, is to add the key signature only to the instrument I specify. If I wanted to add it to all of them, I'd be happy to select them all first.

My interest in music is playing it, or attempting to. I normally make at least three different transpositions of the same score, to play on different instruments, but normally only for one of the parts. Although I'm greedy with the number of instruments I try to play, so far I've only ever tried playing one of them at a time.

I don't really care what happens to the key signatures of all other parts, because I won't be looking at them. Normally, I'd want to have just one part visible in MuseScore and in the exported PDF. The others would ideally stay hidden but be audible in MuseScore so I can use it as a backing track for practising, if I want to. The PDF only ever relates to the one instrument I'll be playing when I read it.

So, yes, the previous behaviour suited my needs much better.

I'm not a composer. I try to be a musician. I'd suggest aspiring or actual musicians outnumber aspiring or actual composers by a large factor. I don't know how that carries over to users of MuseScore, but I would guess the numbers were still in our favour :)

It seems to me this new behaviour could have been optional. Maybe on by default, but with some provision for turning it off and doing it the old way, which I was happy with.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

Well, MuseScore is specifically intended for *writing* music, so I think you are probably mistaken about composers (and arrangers) not being the primary users. Also people simply transcribing existing music to have a more legible version, or to hear the computer playback. For *all* of these use cases, it is normal and expected that changing a key signature would affect all staves.

I am trying to understand your use case, but am not getting it. In what circumstances would it make sense to just change the key signature of a single part in a score? That only makes sense for very unusual poly-tonal music. Making people select all staves first before adding a key signature would not be good for most people.

You mention transposition - why not simply use the transposition commands (eg, Notes ? Transpose)? These transpose the notes and the key signature for you. Or simply change the instrument (right click staff, Staff Properties, Change Instrument). I'm not understanding how manually changing the key signature would come into play at all.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Well, there are a few different scenarios, but I'd typically start with a score which may have been written for a different instrument, then use the stave properties to specify it for one I'm interested in, which would transpose it for me. Lately, I'm trying MIDI files made by other people, and converting them for my use - just to practise with, I'm not stealing anything, or even performing it. I'm just using it to help me learn to play my various instruments better.

I might occasionally start with a blank sheet, and then specify the instrument, again using stave properties, but in that case it would probably just stay as a single instrument score.

For example, I've taken a MIDI song which had an untransposed part for vocals, or maybe guitar, without too many chords, then used stave properties to change that to a trumpet. Since the MIDI file doesn't contain a useful key signature, I'd add one - but it would be meant for the trumpet. What happens to the other instruments doesn't really interest me at that point, so long as they all keep playing the notes they're meant to.

So, for example, I might now be seeing a lot of Bb's in the trumpet part, and not many B naturals, or other accidentals. It might be in F, it might be in D minor. Either way, it's easier for me to read it if I put it in F/Dm, so I try to drag the key signature for that to the trumpet part. That's not how MuseScore thinks any more though, so although I drag the one that looks like F/Dm, I get the key signature for G/Em instead.

In this situation, I might actually want to try a few different key signatures, to see which seems to fit best. Not what a composer would want to do, no, but as a mere operator of horns and tuned lengths of piping, I'm just trying to make it as clear as possible to read while I'm playing it, so there are less cock-ups.

Once it's more or less useful for the first instrument (e.g trumpet), I'd normally transpose it for alto sax and flute as well. The trumpet version is useful for flugelhorn, clarinet, soprano sax and French horn if I choose to think about it in Bb (I'm awkward that way). The alto sax version is useful for alto clarinet, tenor horn and alto trombone (regarding it as an Eb instrument, which I do). Sometimes I might want to make a different one with an octave transposition as well, to suit the particular instrument, to save me having to do that in my head so much. I might even want to do one transposed in F for the official French horn transposition.

Any parts that aren't for the instrument I'll be playing are just background, though. The only thing I'm likely to change about them is the volume level on the mixer. I might look at them out of curiosity, but on the whole, their key signature is their own business, and none of my concern.

Incidentally, looking at the user contributed files, I've mostly been seeing versions of tunes I've heard, or heard of, before, rather than unique compositions - which is good, because that's something I can use. My ability to read music is still pretty limited - I started very late in life - so reading and playing a tune that's already familiar is my best bet.

Maybe that's what I'm seeing because that's what I'm looking for, but it seems to be there are more scores for things I've heard than for things people have written themselves. If that's the case, I'm thinking the majority of users are using MuseScore to help with playing or learning to play, not composing. I would guess that's also the case with Sibelius and Finale, etc.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

I think you are misunderstanding. Of course a lot of music you find created with MsueScore is not compeltely original, but that doens't change anything. Whether it is your own original composition or your arrangement of someone else's piece, the point is, in 99.99% of case, a key change when it happens is meant to apply to all staves at once. If a pop song modulates up a half step for the final chorus, all instruments do this together - and all instruments need to have their own properly transposed key signature. Every signature you see in every piece you see on is that way - created by a person using MuseScore to create music, and I guarantee they are very happy they don't have to add key signatures one at a time to every staff any more!

Not sure what you mean about MIDI file not contain key signatures. They do, or at least can. And they will be transposed properly. If you should happen to find a MIDI file without a key signature then indeed you may need to add one, and do some experimentation along the way, but that is a very specialized situation; it's not at all the norm for why people would need to add key signatures. It would probably be best to just do this in concert pitch mode.

Once you have the proper key signature, that should be the last time you ever look at the key signature palette. From then on, if you want to transpose it into other keys, you should simply use the transposition commands I mentioned earlier. And these do the right things for you automatically - taking care of both the notes and the key signature. You should *never* need to mess with the key signature manually for doing what you are talking about, except for that very unique special case of adding a key signature to a MIDI file that is missing it for some reason.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I've encountered MIDI files with various degrees of detail. That's not the only case though. If I decide to make a new score, just for solo trumpet - and say so as part of the creating a new score wizard, then take the defaults, I'm now given a blank stave for trumpet, with D/Bm as the key signature - I didn't ask for that key signature, I was just given it. No biggy.

So, I decide I want to write down something in F - that's trumpet F, which I appreciate is Eb, to other people. The natural thing for me to do is drag the F key signature from the palette, so I try that and I get G. It's not ideal, is what I'm saying. I'm trying to write down a trumpet tune, and I'm thinking in Bb trumpet transposition. MuseScore is not, at least for the key signatures palette. It used to, but now, no. The key signatures now all work as written in concert pitch, even though I've just got the one Bb transposition part, on a blank sheet.

I appreciate that changing the key signature should normally change it for all other parts, and I'm fine with that. What I meant was, I don't really care what it's changed to. It's the part for my instrument that matters to me.

In the case of a single instrument, which is a transposing instrument - of which there are a lot - it seems to me MuseScore should behave as it used to, and as I still expected it to, not as it now does.

In the case of multiple parts, I can see the point, but I'd still prefer the meaning of the key signature to be in the context I apply it, so that it's "What you see is what you get". I'd expect the other parts to be changed to match - not to the same written key signature, naturally, but to the equivalent one for their transposition, or lack of it.

"A sigh is still a sigh. The fundamental things apply", but the meaning of a note symbol depends very much on the context.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

So I think we agree that when writing for multiple instruments, it almost always makes sense to add it to all staves at once, and presumably you realize this means MuseScore needs to transpose those key signatures, potentially differently for each staff.

When you are working with a score for several instruments, MuseScore cannot read your mind and know that you happen to be "thinking" about the trumpet part specifically. When someone is writing for a whole band, he is normally thinking about keys in concert pitch anyhow, because otherwise he'd have to be thinking in three or four differerent keys at once, and still MuseScore would have no way of guessing which instrument he was thinking about when he added the key signature to his score. There can be no doubt - when writing a full score, adding key signature at concert pitch makes much more sense than having MsueScore try to guess which instrument's transposition you were thinking of.

So then the question then is, should MuseScore behave *differently* according to how many instruemnts you hapen to be writing for? I think most people would find that maddenlingly inconsistent - if dragging an F key signature did one thing most of the time but something entirely different in the cases where you happen to be writing for as single solo trumpet. So, we do what makes sense for the (much) more common case - writing for an *enemble* that happens to include a transposing isntrument, as opposed to writing for a single unaccompanied solo transposing instrument.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

The clue would be the stave I dragged the key signature symbol to, which has properties specifying the instrument, and transposition settings to match.

In the case of writing for a single transposing instrument, I think anyone who played that instrument would expect it to behave how I expected it to behave, and how it used to, not as it does now.

It doesn't have to be one way or the other, though. It could be a user setting. The code to do it the old way for a single instrument, already existed too.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

The thing is, dragging isn't necessarily to one particular staff - it's anywhere within the measure across all staves. Notice how the whole column of measures highlights? This is a very important indicator that the action you are about to do will apply to all staves. You can even be half way between two staves and MuseScore is still happy - and how will MuseScore guess which staff you meant in that case? If you're writing for an orchestra or other ensemble, you don't want to start having to be worried about exactly where your mouse happens to be when you release the button. It would make the behavior seem almost random.

I think you are so accustomed to only thinking about one instrument that you are having trouble seeing how things are when writing for multiple instruments, but trust me - when writing for multiple instruments, being able to add to all staves at once and to think in concert pitch terms is a huge benefit.

So again, for scores of multiple instruments, this really is for the best. The only question then becomes, do we want MuseScore to suddenly change it's behavior in the special situations when you happen to be writing for one instrument. It's not out of the question, but again, I think most people would find that inconsistency extremely maddening. I know I would. Most people expact a certain actuion to always produce the same result, not different results depending on how many staves the score happens to have.

Since you are dealing with only one instrument, why not just do everything in concert pitch mode? Then you don't have to think about transposition.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I don't do everything in concert pitch mode because I tend to want MuseScore to play the tune to me, as it should sound on that instrument, but I want to read and write it in the appropriate transposition for that instrument.

My choice would be to let the user specify how it behaves. Given that choice, I'd set it so it behaved as I described earlier, if that was possible - the behaviour for more than one instrument would be the same as for just one, but the actual key signature that was set would be chosen to match what I was pointing at, not concert pitch. Typically, I'd have made all the other instrument parts invisible anyway, so there wouldn't be much scope for it to get it wrong.

Whether or not composers and arrangers are the main users of MuseScore, they're not the only users. I'd actually be surprised if they were in the majority, but that's not really the issue. Some of the users - a lot of them - will be more interested in playing the music than writing it down, like I am.

The way it used to work made perfect sense to me, and I never even considered that it might do something else when I tried to set a key signature, than what it did then. Certainly I can see how composers and arrangers would prefer how it is now. To the rest of us, it's likely to seem quite awkward or even nonsensical. When I realised it was doing that, I didn't immediately think it must be an intentional change, I thought it was another bug. To me, trying to set one key signature and always getting another is maddening.

A setting to choose between the two ways of looking at it would be very like the Concert Pitch button - in Composer/Arranger mode, the key signatures palette is to be read in concert pitch. In transposing instrument mode, it's to be read in the context of the stave it's applied to.

In both cases, all staves could be affected in exactly the same way. E.g., if I have a trumpet part and a flute part, and I apply F to the trumpet part, in "I transpose" mode, it could (should) apply Eb to the flute part. If I applied F to the flute part, it could (should) apply G to the trumpet part. If there was only the trumpet part, the result would then be that it did what it used to. There's no need for any inconsistency.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

Again, it's not composer versus everytone else - it's people who often use multiple isntruments versus people who always only use a single instrument. The current behavior is *perfect* for the multiple instruments - a *huge* improvement over 1.3 - and only a very slight inconvenience for the single instrument case.

It's not inconceivable that some day we would add an option to allow MsueScore to behave inconsistently - to do one thing for scores of multiple instruments but a different thing for scores of a single instrument. I would not be a fan of such an option, but if some day someone wants to implement it, that's fine. You say there would be no inconsistency, but there most definitely would, because as I have pointed out, key signatures are not applied to a single staff but to the score as whole. Just as time signatures are, just as repeat barlines are, etc. An option such as you request would mean MuseScore would behave differently depending on the number of staves, and that is inconsistent. It's not the end of the world, but I don't like inconsistency.

Anyhow, I think we've said everything there is to say at this point.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

It's not a question of behaving differently depending on the number of staves. There's no need for that to happen. That's the point - the new key signature would still be applied to the whole score. The only difference would be in which key signature would be applied.

It's a question of letting the user choose a different mode of behaviour - e.g. with a button, not dissimilar to the Concert Pitch button.

It goes like this:

Mode 1: button not pressed. Default. Does what it does now, in 2.0.x

Mode 2: button has been pressed. When the user drags a key signature to a particular bar in a particular stave, MuseScore looks at the transposition in that stave. It then uses that to decide what was meant by the key signature and picks the appropriate key signature to set. It now applies THAT key signature change just as it would for mode 1 - to the whole score.

E.g., the option button is pressed, or relevant check box checked, and I drag F to a bar in a trumpet part. Instead of making a key signature change to F, it looks at the transposition used on that stave, and decides that F means Eb, in concert pitch. It now applies an Eb key signature change to the whole score, just as though I'd chosen Eb without the new button pressed.

I realise it's not going to happen any time soon, if ever, but the idea isn't all that convoluted. The number of staves / parts is irrelevant. The same process can be applied whether there's one or twenty.

Yes, the new behaviour is a big improvement for some, no doubt, and it's a step backwards for others. For new users who are used to transposition, they'll wonder why the hell it does what it does, just like I did. However, it would be possible to please everybody, by providing a choice.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

I said we've probably said all there is to say, but maybe a picture will help make my concern more clear. Consider the following:


As I keep pointing out, you don't add a key signature to a single staff, you add it to the score as a whole. How is MuseScore supposed to know which staff I have in mind here? The truth is, I am not thinking about any staff at all; I am thinking about the score as a whole. But with what you propose, MuseScore would have to make a choice. Is my mouse pointer closer to the trumpet staff, meaning I will get an "F" for trumpet which is "Eb" for the trombones, or is it closer to the trombone staff, meaning I will get an "F" for trombone which is "G" for trumpet? This is what I am saying I don't want to suddenly have to start worrying about. I like it that right now, I *know* I will get an "F" concert regardless of whether MuseScore thinks my mouse pointer is closer to the trumpet staff or the trombone staff. The behavior is consistent, and I like consistency.

So again, it's not out of the question, but I hope you at least understand the reservations I have. I don't like options that introduce inconsistency.

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In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I get what you're saying, but it's not just applied to the score as a whole, because the key signature can be changed at different points in the tune/song:

drag a key sig in MS2.gif

So, MuseScore already has to decide which measure you're pointing at, and it highlights it. At the moment, it indicates a stack of bars, one per instrument/part.

In the extra mode I'm proposing, the selection behaviour would have to be different because it would be indicating just one bar for one part, as the selection point - and it would be highlighting that to show what was being pointed at.

The mechanism to do that is already in place. E.g. I can do exactly that with a clef:

drag a clef.gif

- MuseScore is highlighting just one bar, in one part, as needed.

In both of those pictures my finger is still on the mouse button so I haven't committed to the change yet. I can move it to another bar, or another part, before I let go. MuseScore keeps me informed about which is indicated, by highlighting it.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

Yes, when I said a key signature applied to the score as a whiole, it was the vertical stack I meant. I did not mean to exclude the case of key changes in the middle of a score. In fact, mid-score key changes are normally the *only* reason you'd ever use the key signature palette. The initial key signature is normally set already by the time is created, and transposition is normally handled completely automatically. As I have said, I suspect you are currently using the key signature palette for things that are better done via Notes / Transpose of Staff Properties / Change Instrument, and that is why you see seeing this more than rarely. So it's still worth starting a new thread and explaining in more detail what you are actually doing (and it really belongs in a new thread).

Anhow, the difference with clefs is that they really do apply to only staff; that's why only one staff highlights. Key signatures really do apply to all staves, as they should, and that is why the entire stack highlights. In order for the mode you are describing to work well, it should continue to highlight the whole stack - since the whole stack *is* going to be affected - but would need to also somehow provide "extra" highlighting for the staff that will be used as the basis for determining the transposition to apply.

So again, none of this is out of the question. But consider also: how is someone going to learn about this new special mode? They are still possibly going to be surprised by the behavior the first time they see it. If they cannot figure out what is happening, they aren't going to find the option to change it, either. And I think most people, simply understanding why it works as it does is enough; they adapt and move on.

Another possibility: for 2.0.2, there will be a new feature that allows you to add a key signature by selecting a measure and double clicking the key signature icon. So in this case, there *is* already a notion of which staff was selected, and in theory, we could behave differently in this case than with drag & drop. But here too, I would be concerned about the inconsistency.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I've had a harder time explaining what I mean than I expected, and I can see I'm still not quite there yet. I agree, a new thread would be appropriate, and I should have started one in the first place. I looked for an existing one to join that I thought covered the problem, then almost immediately realised this one didn't.

I don't think there's any need to worry about inconsistency. There would be two ways of doing things and a switch to choose between them. That's what I meant by it being similar to the Concert Pitch button - there are two ways to look at the notes, but they're the same notes. There are two ways to look at key signatures too - in the context of transposition, or not.

I don't see another way to set a key signature, but regardless, the palette feels like the natural way to do it. For example in my make a new trumpet score test, I'm presented with D/Bm as the key signature. I'll probably want to change that. Using the palette feels like the way to go, and is what I used to do in 1.3.

I don't write a trumpet part out in concert pitch then transpose it, I write it out in trumpet notes, having chosen trumpet in the stave properties, and with the Concert Pitch button left off.

If I'm writing down a tune in my head, I may well not know the key signature, or key signatures (if there's a change) even though I know the notes I want. I'd add that later - maybe by just seeing what fits, or makes it the most readable. I might also be given a score I can copy out that was written by someone with no clear idea what a key signature is for, or who has sworn off them for some reason of his or her own. I've seen a few of those.

The way in which it could be added to 2.0.2 sounds promising. As for people knowing the feature is there, they just might read it in the manual, or they might come to the forum to ask if there's a way of making it behave as they expected. Ideally, they'd see a button for the setting on the palette and wonder what it might be for. I think that's how I figured out what the Concert Pitch button did. I forget.

I'll try to gather the energy to repeat everything I've already said in a new thread :) ... There may be a delay before that happens. Thanks for your interest.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

To be clear, when I said I thought you probably shouldn't be using the key signatures palette, I meant for the use case you described previously where you have an existing score and then you decide you want to play it in a different key. You don't use the key signatures palette for that - you use the other methods I described.

And if you are creating new scores from scratch, writing down tunes you hear in your head, then congratulations - you are officially a composer or arranger! But note, even so, you normally choose the key signature in the wizard before you ever see or do anything else, and here again, you need to do so in concert pitch, because that is the only way that makes sense given that your score could contain a mix of different instruments. That's presumably why you are seeing D major when you start because you are choosing C concert in the wizard when it asks you for the key signature. Presumably this much is exactly like 1.3. So here again is another point of consistency - adding key signatures from the palette should not behave differently than when adding them when first creating the score.

Anyhow, these will be things to keep in mind as you gather your thoughts to explain more about your workflow.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I see. No, I wasn't talking about changing the key. I was talking about changing the key signature. If I wanted to change the key, I would be using the transposition function, though I mostly use that to go up or down an octave to suit the range of an instrument better.

I often change parts from one instrument to another, but using the stave properties. That changes the key as written, when there are transposing instruments involved. Normally, I'd have got it how I wanted it before that stage, and wouldn't need to change it again. Not always though.

I have occasionally written down a tune I've made up (hard to be sure it was me - my memory isn't always clear on that point), but mostly I meant writing down a tune I've heard, and could probably play some of by ear, to help me get it right, or mess about with it, perhaps.

I've never really enjoyed wizards, so I tend to quit as soon as I can, accepting the defaults then changing what I want some other way. The default is now C concert pitch, shown transposed (to D, in the case of a trumpet). I think the default in 1.3 was C in context - so Bb, in concert pitch for a trumpet, but shown as C. I'm not sure. I'll check soon.

Either way, whatever I chose initially may turn out to have been a poor choice, and I'd then want to change it. I've always used the palette to do that. If I was attempting to write down jazz, I might want to change the key signature at a few points in the tune.

Anyway, yes, I'll try to summon the enthusiasm to start a new thread soon.

Although it would be nice to think I'm unique, on a planet with 7 billion+ other people, the chances are I'm not - in other words, it's likely that other people feel the same way about this. Someone who exclusively plays one particular transposing instrument probably thinks in that transposition most of the time, so would probably feel more strongly about it than I do.

In reply to by AndyHornBlower

You're not alone - a small handful of other people in similar situation (almost exclusively working on scores for a single transposing instrument) have expressed the same feeling. But no one has come up with a completely satisfactory way to resolve the consistency issues. So I understand the issue and haven't given up on the idea of someday finding a solution; I just haven't seen a solution I like.

BTW, 1.3 had the same behavior as 2.0 with regard to how the key signature selection works in the wizard when creating scores. As it must. Again, your score can be for multiple instruments with different transpositions. The key specified in the wizard cannot *possibly* be taken "in context" because in a score for 17 instruments, that is 17 different contexts, and MuseScore would have no idea which instrument's transposition you have in mind when specifying a key. The key specified in the wizard is *always* the concert pitch key, in 1.3 and 2.0, and it pretty much must always be so.

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