Two cents?

• Jan 29, 2017 - 05:51

Hallo,

Can anyone help me to channel this feature request to the right recipients? I learned about the new Musescore 2.0.3 last week through an email newsletter of pc-welt.de computer magazine.
I have been long-time researcher of ancient pre Greek music, but due to serious illness I had not been capable of updating my know-how of computer software. From what I experienced with MS 2.0.3 sofar and the forum in a few days I would rank this SW in quality with other open source code SW like Kodi for TV or Blender in combination with Autodesk freeware for 3D Making… That means I am very positive that MS will grow with time.
My particular concern is twofold and I will give some reasons below. If anyone likes to confirm further they may also write a note to my unfortunately not yet protectable email account at “rasixa@yahoo.com
Long time ago I discovered that 12 th century AD Indian book Sangita Ratnakara contained invaluable information about music from the beginnings of time, only roughly translated yet. The chapter on note contains the internal harmonic relation between two notes, consonant or dissonant. I found that consonant (Sanskrit vadi) is an interval of + 702 cents of 0 or -498 of 1200 cents, then comes vivadi with the next fifths of +204 c etc and anuvadi with the third fifth of +906 c etc. These intervals with +/- 2,4,6 c offset to the nowadays standard tempered tuning are considered consonant or sangati. The offset from +/- 6 to 12 c limit is considered dissonant or vivadi, to be avoided in playing. In MS 2.0.3 the smallest offset tuning by the Inspector is +/- 10 c. This value I find is not permissible according to oldest music theories, which are still valid in the backyard of modern Indian music and I hope that tuning offset will be considered to be at least be programmed to +/- 2 cent steps someday in the future. Phps someone knows to workaround this problem already now. For along time in music there was a scare of the dissonance of the so-called Pythagorean comma of 24 cents, I found that long time before the Greek Pythagoras this dissonance was reduced to maximums of 2, 4 and 6 cents. For most-ancient music I find that the note offset is only required by these three steps.
The other concern is about virtual singing of note names. In the book of Sangita Ratnakara the chapter melody is discussed in great detail, the scores are presented in sanscritic alphabetic letters equivalent to roman letters. This way they may be converted into staff notes. Still it is more convenient to add the original sanscrit letters etc. to the notes in the lyric section and have them voiced out like an instrument. This is practised even to this day in that musical system along with the coordinate dance figures and lyrics like in ballet and opera. Just to caution one is still along way before the many most intricate later forms of modulated music like ragas etc., this discussion belongs to the chapter of song or Sanscrit Ghana for theatrical performance.
I was able to do this note editing partially with a workaround by the free Software PDFto Music, once the score is established by MS 2.0.3 it can be exported to .pdf format and then imported to PDFtoMusic. This worked amazingly well. But I could not experiment with the proper cent values of +/- 2,4,6 to get a finished product. If the feature of virtual singer for note text could be added MS could probably emerge as the foremost runner for all music joining from Neolithic beginnings to most ancient to Greek and medieval times. Just think, my city library only has as Notation Software still the 2006 handbook for Finale for rent, but did not advance further. With MS we could speed light years ahead?

Thanks for reading, sorry for mistypes and phps patiently waiting for a response


Comments

You can set the tuning values in Inspectore to your likins, as fine as to the 100th, 2nd digit after decimal point/comma, just be entering the desired value in the tuning field. Only the spinner (those up/down arrows) is doing this in steps of 10.

It'd be a easy 1-line change (at this place in inspector_note.ui ) to get the the UI to do it in steps of 2, please do request that in the issue tracker, https://musescore.org/en/node/add/project-issue/musescore, so it get managed properly for the upcoming 2.1 and the more distant 3.0/master.

I don't quite get what you mean about virtual singer notes, you want them being sung by MuseScore? Or want them added as text? The latter should work with the notenames plugin.
If you want them in Sanscrit though, I guess that plugin needs to get amended for this or you need to change MuseScore to run in an Indian language and hope the notenames are translated there (or do that translation yourself)
MuseScore does have a translation into Hindi (some 5% or 242 strings translated) and as of newest into Malayalam (only 30 string translated currently), I cheched the notenames in Hindi and it does translate the plain notes (C, D, E, F, G, A, B)
hindi.png
but not those with an accidental (# or b), except for Bb (?!). There's no translation though into Sanscrit yet, do they use the same words/letters for notenames as Hindi?

Attachment Size
hindi.png 7.02 KB

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Hallo,
Can anyone help me to channel this feature request to the right recipients? I learned about the new Musescore 2.0.3 last week through an email newsletter of pc-welt.de computer magazine.
I have been long-time researcher of ancient pre Greek music, but due to serious illness I had not been capable of updating my know-how of computer software. From what I experienced with MS 2.0.3 sofar and the forum in a few days I would rank this SW in quality with other open source code SW like Kodi for TV or Blender in combination with Autodesk freeware for 3D Making… That means I am very positive that MS will grow with time.
My particular concern is twofold and I will give some reasons below. If anyone likes to confirm further they may also write a note to my unfortunately not yet protectable email account at “rasixa@yahoo.com
Long time ago I discovered that 12 th century AD Indian book Sangita Ratnakara contained invaluable information about music from the beginnings of time, only roughly translated yet. The chapter on note contains the internal harmonic relation between two notes, consonant or dissonant. I found that consonant (Sanskrit vadi) is an interval of + 702 cents of 0 or -498 of 1200 cents, then comes vivadi with the next fifths of +204 c etc and anuvadi with the third fifth of +906 c etc. These intervals with +/- 2,4,6 c offset to the nowadays standard tempered tuning are considered consonant or sangati. The offset from +/- 6 to 12 c limit is considered dissonant or vivadi, to be avoided in playing. In MS 2.0.3 the smallest offset tuning by the Inspector is +/- 10 c. This value I find is not permissible according to oldest music theories, which are still valid in the backyard of modern Indian music and I hope that tuning offset will be considered to be at least be programmed to +/- 2 cent steps someday in the future. Phps someone knows to workaround this problem already now. For along time in music there was a scare of the dissonance of the so-called Pythagorean comma of 24 cents, I found that long time before the Greek Pythagoras this dissonance was reduced to maximums of 2, 4 and 6 cents. For most-ancient music I find that the note offset is only required by these three steps.
The other concern is about virtual singing of note names. In the book of Sangita Ratnakara the chapter melody is discussed in great detail, the scores are presented in sanscritic alphabetic letters equivalent to roman letters. This way they may be converted into staff notes. Still it is more convenient to add the original sanscrit letters etc. to the notes in the lyric section and have them voiced out like an instrument. This is practised even to this day in that musical system along with the coordinate dance figures and lyrics like in ballet and opera. Just to caution one is still along way before the many most intricate later forms of modulated music like ragas etc., this discussion belongs to the chapter of song or Sanscrit Ghana for theatrical performance.
I was able to do this note editing partially with a workaround by the free Software PDFto Music, once the score is established by MS 2.0.3 it can be exported to .pdf format and then imported to PDFtoMusic. This worked amazingly well. But I could not experiment with the proper cent values of +/- 2,4,6 to get a finished product. If the feature of virtual singer for note text could be added MS could probably emerge as the foremost runner for all music joining from Neolithic beginnings to most ancient to Greek and medieval times. Just think, my city library only has as Notation Software still the 2006 handbook for Finale for rent, but did not advance further. With MS we could speed light years ahead?

Thxs for reading, sorry for mistypes and phps patiently waiting for a response

Gandharv

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

I am sorry for that mistake, I did not notice!!!
The original reply was this, which I believed I had postet
Quote:
Thx Jojo,
Great help.
As for the Sanskrit part, the letters are correct. All this is subject to controversies indeed, like all Indian music is. A good way to start it taking some lessons from the Music Universities of Madras, Benares, Baroda, New Delhi,.. Malalayam is quite fantastic to work with, as is Tamil or Singhalese, Kannada…there is no end. These languages follow the Carnatic System of modern Indian music, which in turn follows the Sangita Ratnakara which followed the famous Bharata Natya Shastra. However at the time there were no books in our sense but manuscripts, which were altered constantly. This way many different views emerged, the origin of Northern Indian Music or Hindi could be possibly explained like this. But they all use the Sanskrit letter symbols for the notes.
In notation literature these Sanskrit (same as Hindi) letters are dealt with in three octaves, as such they stand for the middle or Madhya. In the higher octave or Tara I use the dot sign above the letter, in the lower or mandra octave I use the dash sign above the letter, opposite as used in literature. I found them to be the counting of one to seven in the octave 2:1. I apply letters of Ni, Dha, Pa, Ma, Ga, Ri and Sa as numbers one to seven for ancient times and Sa to Ni or seven to one for the more modern times. Yes I will try that notename plug-in and adjust it myself. To my understanding mandra Sa or S´a is the C note, Madhya Ni is D note and so on, Ga I take for A4 = 440 Hz. This I found best to compare to more ancient scale forms. In your png you use the modern Indian way taking Ga for the E note and counting seven to one, Madhya Sa to Ni, leaving out the complicated discussion of the 22 shruti values.
Phps someone could elaborate in easy to follow steps what you mean by inserting these note names? I put the English names with dot and slashes in the lyric lines as text. In MS I need to know how to attach voice sounds to the lyric line to make them sound together with the musical accompaniment of the note. If I chose harp for the note, then the lyric say letter Sa should be sung to it, like the Sarigamas in Indian music.
Another question would be if one can write chords as well to the MS score and get some more instruments to play them all together at once, so to form the background of an orchestra for the performance?
Thxs again for reading, sorry for mistypes and phps patiently waiting for a response.
End of quote

In reply to by Gandharv

I just switched MuseScore to Hindi (see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/language-settings-and-translation-upd…) and then used the notenames plugin, which does use the translations from MuseScore.
The plugin will add them as staff text (see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/staff-and-system-text#staff-text), not as lyrics though (see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/lyrics)

Still the Hindi translation is pretty incomplete (but sufficient for this purpose here it seems, except for notes with accidentals, # or b), check https://www.transifex.com/musescore/musescore/language/hi_IN/, esp. the resource MuseScore. Maybe you can sign up as a translator there and help improving it.

If with 'write chords' you reallyy mean chords, i.e. a group of notes played at the same time: yes of course you can and they will sound. If you mean chord symbols though (e.g. "Gmaj7"): you can add them (see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/chord-symbols) but they won't Play back

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Thank you for the advise and suggestions, it will take me some days in my sparetime to consider them in detail to come back here.

I am sorry for mistakes, Pls eradicate double posting? Something seems to be wrong with the account. I received your first reply about 6 times in my email account, but the second only once in the spam?

Thxs again for reading, sorry for mistypes and phps patiently waiting for a response.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Thxs for that generous offer.

But the link does not work for me, it gives forbidden access. https://www.transifex.com/musescore/musescore/language/hi_IN/

For a test I added the sanskrit hindi letter notes into the MS lyrics line and adjusted each corresponding staff note by +/- cents. Then I did export to .mxl etc. format. I import the MS .mxl into Harmony Assistant trial software and in playback I get the correct cent singing of the letter notes. Great.
In this Harmony Assistant trial software one can choose chord display and see all the chord symbols as ig. Am, attached down to each quarter note in the score. This can be exported as graphic .png file and send to a printer. This way there are the sanskrit hindi letter notes, the staff notes, the mathematically correct chord symbols all on one sheet to be performed by a physical or virtual instrument to be processed further.

I will try the other suggestions later on.

Thxs for reading, sorry for mistypes and phps patiently waiting for a response

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

After many trials I managed to join the translation team in transfix. What happens next? What am I to do, what for? Nothing happens there further.. I am a bit confused about all that?

In the handbook it says this, but I can see no avail of it?

quote:
3. Once signed in, select your language and you will see all the available resources which can be translated
4. The resources for the MuseScore software are MuseScore and Instruments
5. If these are not at 100%, click on the resource
6. Finally click on the blue Translate button
end of quote

Thanks for reading, sorry for mistypes and phps patiently waiting for a response

In reply to by Gandharv

Juist follow those steps, here: select the language, e.g. Hindi, then a resource, e.g. MuseScore and select 'translate'. IOn the left Hand side you see the strings, select one, on the right hand side you see that string on the top, in the field below that enter the translation, save, go to next string...

Wait a short while, up to an hour

Grab a 2.1 nightly build from https://musescore.org/en/download#Nightly-versions, unpack and run it, then update translations, see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/language-settings-and-translation-upd…

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