Removing barlines
Is there a way to remove bar lines? I'm not talking about just hiding them. I want to remove them altogether, so that note values remain absolute (i.e., no ties). I work mostly in early music, and this is fairly customary in early scores.
Thanks
Comments
Setting up a new score with a time signature that yields extremely long measures. The program lets you go as far as 63/1 time, but this results in notes running off the edge of the paper. The practical maximum seems to be 48/4, which when you fill a measure with quarter notes gives you one measure per line. This probably won't be adequate, but to really get rid of the concept of measures would be a programming change. Probably a big and difficult one....
-- J.S.
In reply to I tested a possible workaround.... by John Sprung
Getting rid of the measure concept wold be a big change indeed: from what I know of the internal structure of MuseScore, it is completely measure-centric.
Also, doing without measures would not address all the possible cases. I mostly work with early music too and it would be often useful for me to have BOTH notes 'running across measures' AND some kind of bar lines, usually of some special kind (for instance dotted bar lines (which are in themselves already possible, but require tied notes), short bar lines, lines not across staves but between staves, and so on) to show they are editorial additions.
As far as I know, doing completely without bar lines is customary only for VERY early music (before mensuration) or for some special case.
So, a more general solution could be:
1) Keep the concept of measure
2) Having a way to display notes even across measure boundaries (at least on the visible surface, how they are internally managed and stored by the programme is secondary); a super-duper detail would be the additional possibility of displaying dotted notes with the note before the bar line and the dot after!
3) Having more flexibility in the bar line format, as described above, including a "no bar lines" option, to also accommodate Peter's request. The "no bar lines" options should also remove any additional spacing related with the bar line.
This would still be a rather big change, but less dramatic than dismissing the very concept of measure; and it would address more cases.
Perhaps it is worth opening a feature request. I believe this can only go into next version, there is 0 probability such a change can get into an update for the current version (1.0).
M.
P.S.: the 63/1 time signature trick is clever, but having only 63 semi-breves would be way too little in the great majority of cases.
In reply to Yes, a BIG change by Miwarre
"but having only 63 semi-breves would be way too little in the great majority of cases."
Yes, for a whole composition. What you'd have to do is set a special time signature for each system, tweaked to yield one measure per system. (Possible using the top row Create dropdown, and selecting Time Signatures.) You could leave it loose with unseen rests off the end, or adjust the count to equal what's really there, so it would play back in MuseScore. Then make all these special time signatures invisible. You can set the end of system time signatures invisible as well, and also the bar line ahead of them. The only thing left is that there's an excessively large blank space where the invisible end of system stuff is.
Granted this is a very kludgey way to work, but if you absolutely had to print something and ship it today, you could.
-- J.S.
In reply to "but having only 63 by John Sprung
Instead of using time signature, right click on a measure and change its actual duration. You don't have to make the time signature invisible and then don't take any room.
If you don't want time signature at the end of a system, go to Style -> Edit global style -> Page and uncheck create courtesy time signature.
In reply to "but having only 63 by John Sprung
A different custom time signature for each system, with barlines made invisible, is exactly how I'd think to do it as well. But to allow for possibility of wanting to reflow notes from system to system if I, for example, wanted to change the page size or scaling scaling, or just changed my mind. I'd probably actually break down each system into several pseudo-measures, delineated by cadences, entrances, etc.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I've found a way to make it mostly work, though I still have the odd tied note.
But re: Miwarre's comment: "As far as I know, doing completely without bar lines is customary only for VERY early music (before mensuration) or for some special case."
I suppose it depends on what your concept of VERY early is. There are lots of examples, especially in polyphonic styles, of music lacking bar lines from the late Renaissance and early Baroque. But it also depends somewhat on genre. For instance, in the first published version of Monteverdi's <i>Orfeo</i> (1615), bar lines occur. However in his first book of madrigals (1607), the part books do not have bar lines.
In any case, I'm mostly thrilled with MuseScore in general. It's a bit crashy at times, but it always recovers very gracefully. And I'm finding it somewhat buggy, but perhaps that's because I'm pushing it too far outside the envelope. I await new versions eagerly, and hope that future releases will somehow find a way to accommodate the needs of early music more easily.
In reply to Thanks for all the by petergarner
Hi Peter,
Of course, you are right, my sentence was too terse; particularly in part books, bar lines were usually absent well into the XVII century, significantly later than Monteverdi's Orfeo (a late item I have right at hand is, for instance, the 1642 Ballard print of Moulinié's Airs: it is a voice + lute score and it is barless).
What I was attempting to say is that, in modern editions, it is not customary to do without any sort of bar line -- however minimal -- for music after, roughly speaking, XIV century (which is rather early...). This, of course, assuming MuseScore is used to make modern editions of early music, rather than replicas of ancient printings...
Thanks,
M.
In reply to VERY, rather, slightly... by Miwarre
Hi Miwarre,
Yes, modern editions do tend to insert those pesky bar lines where they weren't originally. And yes, most modern performers tend to be a little at sea without them. Fair enough.
My own perspective is as a performer of early music who enjoys (and indeed prefers) reading from barless scores. As an instrumentalist who often plays vocal parts, I find it much easier to phrase according to word accent and not be duped into more modern phrasing by bar lines. And while some ancient editions are fine for performing, having a nice clean part (modern note heads, written-out ligatures, larger rests, etc.) makes everything a little easier, especially when rehearsal time is limited.
So in that sense, I would welcome more "early music-friendly" features in MuseScore. I realize that's probably not high on the priority list, but a guy can dream. :D Already, it's much better than most other "free" programs I've used.
In reply to Hi Miwarre, Yes, modern by petergarner
It is an interesting perspective!
I never had the idea (or if I had it, I immediately ignored it, just out of habit) to make "modern ancient scores", what I was calling "replicas" above: using the cleanness of modern engraving to reproduce the flow of the original.
(To your list of advantages of modern re-engraving, I would add 'decent' clefs: as a viol player, for me playing from originals is a problem mostly for the clefs used; I simply cannot get accustomed to clefs like baritone or mezzo-soprano!)
However, the idea makes sense. But I agree it is probably not high in priority. The proposal sketched above would solve this and other aspects, though.
I would welcome more "early music-friendly" features in MuseScore too! For instance, I would also like to see better support for incipits and for figured bass.
Maybe, a lobby could be set up for EarlyMuseScore users...
M.