Measures slow down and speed up

• Apr 26, 2011 - 23:25

I'm sure if this is a bug or not so excuse me if I am in the wrong place. I have a piece I am writing in 4/4 time with the the speed set t 137, but, when it hits some measures that are a little more complicated then 2 half notes per measure the progam slows down to play them and then speeds up again when the measures become simpler. I checked to make sure that my notes total 4 beats per measure. Any ideas on this?

Thanks,

Gary


Comments

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I took a section of song. Please see if it does that same thing to you. It should all be at 132 for tempo. Interesting, I just opened that attachment and the tempo has reverted to 72. What I was doing was selecting the first note of the song and using control alt T to bring up the tempo screen and making my change there. It did change everything to 132 but it didn't save it. Is there another way to do this? Well, please take a look anyway because it is still doing it.

Thanks,

Gary

Attachment Size
speed problem sample.mscz 2.87 KB

In reply to by gborelli

It could have happened if it was created in a earlier buggy version.

Start the score again from scratch in 1.0 (don't copy/paste).

I counted the beats of the section that didn't sound right timing-wise :).

In reply to by chen lung

Not sure if it looks different on your system, but I count only 15. The Electric Bass part is only 14 - 3&1/2 beats. I find I can't enter music like that normally, but I could imagine some sort of convoluted series of copy/paste operations might mess up and leave something like that. Or maybe import of a MIDI file. Also, the rhythm in the next measure is practically undecipherable - it would be completely impossible for a human to read - but it *does* add up correctly.

In reply to by chen lung

I suppose it's possible opne of us is just making a mistake counting, but it occurs to me it's just as likely that whatever is wrong with that measure is actually causing it to display differently on your system. This is what I see in bars 7-8 when I bring up the piece:

15.png

Looks to me like the piano top staff and the electric bass staff *both* have the wrong number of beats, and they have a different wrong number of beats at that. But in the piano top staff, I see 2 sixteenths (that's what a semiquaver is, right?) for the first note, 6 for the second, 1 for the rest, 4 total for the triplet, and 2 for the last note, for a total of 15. The electric bass bass part is 4 for the first note, 4 for the next, 4 for the triplet, and 2 for the last note, for a total of 14. Only the piano bottom staff has the correct length.

Bar 8 has the right number of beats, but the beaming connects the first 7/16 of the measure, then starts a dotted quarter on the last sixteenth of beat "2". It certainly wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of copy and paste created a mess like that, and I could also imagine a user entering that on purpose if he wasn't familiar with the conventions of rhythmic notation; I just wanted to make sure that MIDI import didn't create that, because I'd expect that to produce correctly notated rhythms.

Attachment Size
15.png 14.45 KB

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Hi Marc,

To me it is readable, but, that's because I wrote it. The fact that you see it as a problem is invaluable. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. What would you do differently? My first thought is make the tied note at the beginning of the measure an unbarred note. This sound logical?

Thanks,

Gary

In reply to by gborelli

See the comment I just posted, but I can actually give you a quick run down of the rules for rhythmic notation:

1. In any measure that contains only quarters and halves (crotchets and minims for the UK, I think), you can combine them any way you want. Same of course for a measure consisting of just a whole note.

2. In any measure that includes eighth notes (quavers) - and that includes use of dotted quarters (dotted crotchets) - you must mentally divide a 4/4 measure into two 2/4 measures. Any note that starts on one side of the measure and is held out into the second side must be split into two notes with a tie. But within each half of the measure, you can combine the eights & quarters any way you like. Another way of saying this is that you must expose beat 3 when eighths (quavers) are involved: there must be a physical note that begins on beat 3, even if it is actually the second half of a tie.

3. In any half measure that includes sixteenth notes (semiquavers) - and that includes dotted eighths (dotted quavers) - you must mentally divide that half measure into two 1/4 measures, and similarly break up notes that start in one portion of the measure but continue to the next. Another way of saying this is that you must expose the second beat of each half measure when sixteenths (semiquavers) are invovled.

4. Beams similarly must note straddle these divisions. So in any half measure that includes sixteenths (semiquavers), that means you only beam notes together is they occur within a single beat. No connecting notes that are part of beat one with notes that are part of beat two.

So in your example, you cannot have the second note as a dotted eighth - that would make it extend into beat two. You must write it as an eighth tied to a sixteenth, so we can see where beat two is. And then, you must break the beam there as well. Similarly, the next note starts within beat two but ends within beat three, so it must be broken up to expose beat 3.

There are certain exceptions - rhythms so common that we can waive these rules because we've all seen them thousands of times (like a measure consisting of 8 eighth notes all beamed together). But these rules aren't optional. You really *have* to be aware of these rules when notating rhythms, because all printed music is produced using these same rules, and the way a human being reads a rhythm is by recognizing its similarity to other rhythms he has played. There are only eight possible rhythms in the entire world (until you get into triplets, anyhow) in terms of how they are notated if you've broken ti down correctly. They correspond to the eight ways you can arrange quarter notes, halves, and whole notes to form a full measure. They are: W, H H, Q Q Q Q, H Q Q, Q Q H, Q H Q, DottedH Q, Q DottedH. Similarly, there are only eight ways of writing a half measure using eighths, quarters, and halves; and only eight ways of writing a single beat using sixteenths, eighths, and quarters.

We absolutely depend on this in reading rhythms. Music that breaks these rules won;t look familiar, and it is practically guaranteed most players will not be able to read it. I mean, sure, he can eventually stop and figure it out (and he'll probably then rewrite it correctly so he can get it right next time without having to remember how it worked out to be. But he shouldn't have to if the music is written correctly in the first place.

In your case, here is the correct version:

rhythm_notate.png

As you can see, each beat is clearly visible, and each is easily recognized as one of the eight possible rhythms. The first beat is eighth eighth, the next is sixteenth eighth sixteenth, the next is quarter, and the last is sixteenth dotted eighth.

Attachment Size
rhythm_notate.png 3.1 KB

A way to solve it is to insert new measures before the bad ones and enter them again. Then delete the bad measures.
If you find out how you manage to enter these bad measures, it's very interesting for the developers.

In reply to by [DELETED] 5

I have been doing a combination of cut & pastes, note entry and pasting notes into rests etc... I did notice that when I was creating triplets and I wasn't getting what I wanted I would delete two of the 3 notes, change the lead note to a different value ( like 1/8 to 1/4 ) and then re-enter via tuplets-triplets. When I did this a couple of times I noticed that the measures were letting more notes be entered than a 4/4 time signature should allow, so I deleted the notes and re-entered into the same measure. That may account for the corruption. Another thing I have been doing is copy and pasting a measure to a blank measure and reworking it there and then copy and pasting it back. Let me try some of the ideas you a have all mentioned and see what happens from there.

Thanks,

Gary

In reply to by [DELETED] 5

The defintion I have for a triplet is:

The triplet is a musical symbol, which alters the time value of notes and rests. It says to the reader: "fit three time values of these notes and/or rests, into the same time value of two notes and/or rests".
In order to fit three into two, we divide 2 by 3; 2/3=.66
Each note and/or rest (member of a triplet group) has an value equal to .66 of it's original value.

Measure one contains one triplet group of three half notes.
In 4/4 time, two half notes equals 4 beats (2+2=4).
Each member of a triplet group has an equivalent beat time value equal to .66 of it's original value.
2 (the original beat value of a half note in 4/4 time) times .66 = 2 X .66 =1.33
1.33 + 1.33 + 1.33 = 4 beats (rounded to the nearest whole number).
The first two beats of measure two contains one triplet group of three quarter notes. The third beat contains one triplet group of three eighth notes. The fourth beat contains one quarter note.
((1 X .66) X 3) + ((.5 X .66) X 3) + 1 = 2+1+1 = 4 beats

Does it seem like the program is doing this or could it be the cut and pasting I mentioned?

In reply to by gborelli

I started a brand new measure in 4/4 time. I entered an 1/8 note then a dotted 1/4 then leaving the note value at 1/4 I went to Tuplets and selected triplet and the program showed 4 1/8 notes 3 as a triplet. I named the triplet and the last 1/8 note. The program then moved me to the next measure. Now PLEASE!!! correct me if I am not seeing this correctly.
1/8 = .5
dotted 1/4 = 1.5
1/8 note triplet = 1
1/8 note = .5
so the total I have is 3.5 which is not correct. Shouldn't I have room for another 1/8 note in the meaure?

HELP!!!!

In reply to by [DELETED] 5

Your right,

I did a new measure in the old score. I didn't realize, ( even though it was said a least twice) that I needed to rebuild the whole score. I am not that far into it that I can't start over, but, I really do appreciate the offer of help. When I created a new score and repeated entering as I stated above, it worked perfectly. This Forum is incredible and filled with a lot of caring and kindness. In a world that seems to have broken down in it's care for the other person, this has been extremely uplifting and warm. Thank you and also all of the other responders to this post.

Gary

In reply to by gborelli

Copy and paste does generally work, yes. But it can indeed produce some odd results when trying to copy rhythms from one part of a beat to another, especially when triplets are involved. Probably best to only copy whole measures or whole numbers of beats.

In reply to by gborelli

If you entered an 1/8 and then a dotted 1/4, the note value is *not* at 1/4 - it's at dotted-1/4. So the triplet you then entered isn't adding up to on beat - it's adding up to one and a half beats. That's why you only have half a beat left over. If you wanted a plain eighth note triplet adding up to one beat, you'd have to change the rhythmic value from the dotted-quarter it was on to plain quarter.

That at least may explains how your electric bass part got messed up - it looks exactly like what doing what you just described would do. Trying to enter a triplet with a dotted note value selected should probably pop up an error, or otherwise clue you in that what you're doing doesn't make sense. Or, just enter regular eighths, since three eighths is indeed a dotted quarter. Or, if it wanted to notate a triplet, it shouldn't show three eighths, but rather, three dotted eighths. The fact that MuseScore produced the notation it did seems like a bug to me - but it' a bug caused by doing something you probably didn't really mean to do.

But now it's much easier for me to understand how, in conjunction with copy & paste, the mess in the piano treble clef part for bar seven might have gotten created.

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