Repositioned flags won't 'stick'

• Dec 7, 2012 - 02:07

To de-clutter a bar, I have flipped second voice notes and then repositioned the flags to coincide with the other note, as seen in bar 2 of the attached (there is also a problem with the dots, see Dots don't flip with notes in forums). I think you would agree that bar 2 is much more attractive than bar 1, but the new flag positions won't hold when the piece is saved.

When the file is reopened, all the flags have slid to half mast, as in bar 3.

I have found that I can create a PDF file with the new positions if I do it before saving the MuseScore file, but then it can't be worked on another day.

I'm using version 1.2.0
Any suggestions?

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As you have found, you can't flip notes with flags or beams (and modify the flags positions) and expect them to combine. (Somedays I wish it was that easy but no program I know of will do that.) You will need to learn to work with voices in a more complex way, and combine the flagged/beamed notes into a chord in one voice.

In reply to by schepers

It just seems intuitive to me that if you can adjust something you should be able to save its new position. Why allow repositioning if it won't 'stick'?

A couple of times I have flipped a crotchet note that is over an octave away from the other note and the stem hasn't reached to the second note. In this case you can just click on the stem and lengthen it until it meets the other note, and that saves okay.

In reply to by garos

I have discovered a way to make the flags 'stick' when saved. The trouble was that I shifted the flag with out taking the stem along, so when saved they reverted to their place on the stem. If I flip the note, then extend the stem until both flags line up, everything is okay.

You need to be committed, though (perhaps in more ways than one). It can be difficult to get hold of the right "voiced' stem, but clicking between the note heads seems to work okay, and working at 400% certainly helps. The trick then is to get a fix on the little 'extension box' which is almost completely covered by the other voice's stem.

I just need to resolve the dot problem now!

In reply to by garos

I'm not really understanding what you are doing here. The example you posted looks strange to me - not
"decluttered", but confusing. It seems to randomly change from two voices to just one with no apparent logic behind the changes. But if you do want to do this, I'd do it by actually changing from two voices to one, and hiding the rest in the other voice. Seems more foolproof than faking it by flipping stems.

In reply to by garos

You're hymnal likely has notes going the same direction, not opposing like 4-part choral singing. This means combing the soprano/alto using voice 1, and only using voice 2 when you really have to. This will result in extraneous rests from voice 2 which you can hide. See what I did to the first bar...


Most of the notes are combined in one voice except the final sixteenth in the top which is voice 2, and I've hidden all the extra rests that get produced. The bottom middle quarter F is also voice 2 and I've hidden the extra rests as well. I've also broken the default beams on the dotted eighth/sixteenth combos.

Is this the look that you are trying to achieve? It's a lot easier and doesn't require fine adjusting the note lengths to get the flags to line up.

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In reply to by garos

I'm still confused. Your posted example shows three measures, each having ther same notes but laid out differently. Are you saying your hymnal contains that same sequence of three measures - same notes but different layout from measure to measure? Or is that perhaps trying to show three different attempts at reproducing one signle measure? If so, do any of the three resemble the hymnal? None of them look like I'd expect. I'd expect a hymnal to either show the voices distinct at all timers, or to use a convention where stems are shared where the rhythms coincide, but opposing stems used wherre rhythyms differ. Your first two measures both show a kind of random combination of shared and opposing stems, but the rhythms are identical, so they really should either all be shared (like the thiord measure) or else all opposing (which none of your measures do).

EDIT: I see now on more clearly reading your description that you really are showing three different ways of writing the same measure, not three consecutive measures. but it still isn't clear if any of these actually match the hymnal or not. Again, since the rhythms are identical, I'd expect to see either shared stems for the whole measure - in which case, you wouldn't need multiple voices at all - or else multiple voices with opposing stems for the whole measure (which none of your examples do). As it is, it seems like you are randomly switching between the two styles. Are you saying your hymnal does this? Are you sure it's not in cases where the rhythms *differ* that opposing stems are used? Or perhaps your hymnal also uses opposing stems for intervals of a second (eg, F & G sounding at the same time)?

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Without knowing more, I conjecture that the first measure is how it's being entered by the OP in two separate voices. The second is the notes flipped and flags/note heights adjusted to make it look like the notes are combined, the third is simply the notes flipped or how it looks once MS has reloaded the file.

In reply to by schepers

The second bar is exactly as shown in the book, the first as entered using two voices, and the third as it appeared after saving, before I realised I could just adjust the stems.

I believe you have the solution above. It even solves the problem of dots appearing in the wrong spaces. I'll have a fiddle around and see if I can reproduce what you have done. Thanks again.

I have experimented with hidden rests, but have found they push the notes aside, i.e. taking up the 'space' even though they are not seen. In your example above they are nicely placed, so I'll see what I can do.

Marc, yes, the book uses opposing stems for intervals of a second, which means I need to use the second voice for the whole bar, not just the final notes, as shown in the example.

In reply to by garos

Makes sense. In general, hidden rests shouldn't changes spacing at all in this context, although I could see how one could get that impression if you're just experimenting with voices and not quite sure of what you are entering in which voice. So I think you'll find this works quite well.

Do note that the particular convention of sharing stems except for seconds is OK, but nothing you should really feel obligated to go out of your way to emulate. If you're going to combine the voices onto one stem the rest of the measure, there's really no reason in the world not to do it for the seconds as well. To make an analogy, it's as if in copying the lyrics, you went and installed special fonts just to copy how the book did it, when really, there is nothing wrong with using Times New Roman.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Everything is working fine using your system, schepers. I just wish I had been smart enough to figure it out for myself. Making those rests invisible and then un-ticking the 'show invisible' option (thus making the invisible even more invisible) works a treat.

Marc, I take your point. I don't know a great deal about notation and I was just trying to keep it like the original so I knew it was correct, or one version of correct, at least.

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