Finding key by ear exercise - When the Right One Comes Along
I am doing some more finding key by ear exercises. Yes, I have some more sheet music that isn't in the recorded key :) I found the key (E Major) for the version of "When the Right One Comes Along" (Nashville series) where Sam Palladio sings lead (Spotify). However the version on Google Play Music, with Claire Bowen singing lead still eludes me. It sounds like it is a half step lower than the Sam Palladio version, which would be E flat Major, but it doesn't seem to work for me. Anyone taking a break from the festivities that can steer me in the right direction?
Happy Holidays to all :)
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Comments
I don't using google play music, but if there's the same version as I found on Youtube, is should be D flat major (or C sharp major).
In reply to I don't using google play… by kuwitt
Wow! I just got back from my rehearsal room. That was it! I have never, ever seen a piece of music in C# Major before. I didn't even know it existed. Many thanks :)
In reply to Wow! I just got back from my… by globetrotterdk
C# Major almost does not exist :-) It would have seven sharps in it. MuseScore does support it, see the handbook on key signatures, but it is really uncommon. What definitively exists is Db Major. It has five flats and is not unheard of. In my jazz-big-band we play several tunes in Db.
In reply to C# Major almost does not… by AndreasKågedal
Thanks :)
Maybe that is why it doesn't convert properly when I change instruments from C Melody saxophone to Tenor sax? I don't know what is going on here.
In reply to Thanks :)… by globetrotterdk
Not sure what's going on.
When I reenter these note pitch (resp. an excerpt of this score) with a melody saxophone in d flat major in a score from scratch and change the instrument to tenor saxophone, it respells the accidentals as expected.
Maybe you've steps to reproduce or could attache the score you've entered with the melody saxophone.
BTW: Maybe as you know you can solve the problem via "select all" (ctrl+a), arrow up and arrow down.
In reply to Thanks :)… by globetrotterdk
If you have nothing selected and use Notes->Transpose then select either Db major/Bb minor or C# major/A# minor all of the accidentals end up correct when I do it.
In reply to If you have nothing selected… by mike320
Interesting. I just did that as well. I changed the key to E Flat Major, which is the key that it should be for a Tenor saxophone, and like you all of the notes end up correctly. However, if I select all measures, right click, select "staff properties" and in the dialog change the instrument to tenor saxophone, the result is the same as the file I attached. very weird.
In reply to Interesting. I just did that… by globetrotterdk
I'm understanding better now. I was a little slow catching on. I should have read everything better the first time.
The Melody Saxophone transposes by an octave and uses the same key signature as concert pitch. If you change the key signature, the notes are only rewritten in the new key signature using accidentals as needed. Changing the key signature does not transpose the instrument. Since you went from sharps to flats in the key signature, accidentals were introduced throughout the score. When you changed the instrument to Tenor Saxophone, the same concert key signature was maintained and all of the accidentals were still honored. Since the Tenor Sax transposes a ninth, the key signature changes to indicate the correct key signature for the Tenor Sax. The notes are also transposed so the Tenor Sax will play the same pitch as the Melody Sax.
In summary: In an existing sore, If you want to change instruments so they play the same notes, use the Staff Properties and change the instrument. If you want to change the key an instrument is playing in, use Notes->Transpose... to change the key.
In reply to I'm understanding better now… by mike320
I play my saxophones using the recorded song (Spotify/Google Play Music) as accompaniment. So, thanks to kuwitt, I know that for C Melody saxophone, the sheet music needs to be in the key of C# Major.. When I look at a transposition table, I can see that the key of the song needs to be changed to E Flat Major. If I use Notes->Transpose, I get the correct key change, however the midi continues to refer to the C Melody saxophone. Therefore, the most natural to me would be to switch from C Mel to Tenor sax, however as you write, the same concert key signature was maintained... which is a serious pain and counter intuitive in my opinion.
In reply to I play my saxophones using… by globetrotterdk
I'm not really following. If you change instrument from C Melody Saxophone to Tenor Saxophone using Staff Properties / Change Instrument, the key signatures most definitely change just as they should (assuming you have Concert Pitch turned off). If you are seeing otherwise, please attach your score and explain the precise steps you are following. Or perhaps you are doing something different?
In reply to I'm not really following. … by Marc Sabatella
As per my attached file, the key signature changes, but almost every single note becomes an accidental. So despite it being in the "correct" key signature, it isn't in fact, with all of those accidentals. Here is the file again:
In reply to As per my attached file, the… by globetrotterdk
Yes, as mentioned, in those rare cases where transposing causes the key signature to flip from flats to sharps or vice versa, you will need to fix the notes manually using one of the techniques mentioned (eg, select all, press Up then Down or vice versa).
In reply to Yes, as mentioned, in those… by Marc Sabatella
This is all relatively new to me. I have no idea how the notes should be changed, unless it is something obvious like moving them all up or down an octave.
In reply to I play my saxophones using… by globetrotterdk
I agree it takes a little getting used to, but everything is ultimately done in concert pitch in MuseScore. One argument for it doing this is in the form of a question. If you had a saxophone quartet (1 Bb soprano, 1 C Melody, 1 Eb alto and 1 Bb tenor) what would your expectation be if you changed the key of the song? If you look at it in concert pitch mode it would be obvious that the key signature would be changed to what you are selecting, but which instrument's key signature would be used in transposed mode?
I would prefer some method for transposing based upon an instrument, but it would be difficult to come up with a method to have it make sense. If you want to transpose a song based upon the Alto being in the key of D, all of the other instruments would need their keys changed as well, otherwise it would sound rather bad.
One possible way do implement this could be: If you extract parts, select the Alto Sax and transpose, all of the other instruments could transpose appropriately based upon if you are viewing it in concert or transposed mode. This is just one idea of how it could work.
In reply to I play my saxophones using… by globetrotterdk
When I'm using your score, you attached (the version of Sam Palladio); select notes->transpose...->by key and choose D flat major; then right click -> staff properties and changing the instrument to tenor saxophone; maybe after all using ctrl+a and then arrow+up...
...isn't it the result you expected?
In reply to When I'm using your score,… by kuwitt
It is the Claire Bowen version that is kicking up the problems.
In reply to It is the Claire Bowen… by globetrotterdk
But is the same melody in another key signature, isn't it?
So I opened your attached score of Sam Palladino, then:
Or miss I something?
In reply to But is the same melody in… by kuwitt
If I take the Claire Bowen version (C# Major) and transpose to E Flat Major and then right click and select staff properties and change to tenor sax, the key signature changes to F Major. If I start by changing instruments with staff properties, the song is transposed to E Flat Major, but almost every note is an accidental. From there, I don't know how to clean it up. Select all and ??? I assume also that this will change from song to song. It would be more intuitive if the score just works when the instrument is changed.
Not that I have much experience with it, but Frescobaldi (Lilypond) seems a lot more logical. You have a song written for an instrument tuned to the key of "C" and the song is (for example) in the key of "A" Major, all you need to do is:
\transpose a b \scoreATenorSaxophone
I realize that there are other complications with Lilypond, which is why I don't use it very often, but when I change instruments in MuseScore, I don't understand why it can't do the same (yes, I did read the explanation above).
In reply to If I take the Claire Bowen… by globetrotterdk
I suppose the confusion is, you've transposed the score to C sharp major instead of D flat major (it's the same scale but with different key signatures). In this case the only solution I see is to press ctrl+a and then arrow+up and arrow+down, to have the right accidentals in the transposed key signature after changing the instrument.
But as mentioned, a C sharp key signature isn't very common, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-sharp_major.
Better to transpose your score to D flat major (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-flat_major) for the score of Clare Bowen and changing the instrument to tenor saxophone, it should work as expected.
In reply to I suppose the confusion is,… by kuwitt
Agreed - creating the score in Db to begin with rather than C# would have made sense. C# might make sense if you were writing for strings, for example, and did not intend to also have saxophones, and occasionally there can be other reasons to prefer C#. But the fact that you also intend to transpose for saxophone is a strong reason not to choose C# and to use Db instead, so without an even stronger reaosn to choose C#, better to keep things simple and use Db.
Anyhow, that's how to deal with this next time. Going forward with things as they are now, the solution remains as I suggested - Ctrl+A to select all, Up to raise everything a half step, Down to lower it a half step so everything is back to the original pitch but spelled using flats rather than sharps.
In reply to If I take the Claire Bowen… by globetrotterdk
MuseScore also handles the easy cases easily - far more easily than LilyPond, actually:-). Had your score been in A, then transposing for Tenor Saxophone would have been as simple as Staff Properties / Change Instruments / Tenor Saxophone. No need for you to know - as LilyPond apparently requires - that this will mean the key changes from A to B. So again, the easy cases are even easier in MsueScore. Complications only arise in the hard cases - the ones where the correct transposition involves a change from sharps to flats. These can also be handled easily enough, it's just the specific thing you tried wasn't the right way to do it..
In reply to MuseScore also handles the… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks to everyone for the advice. Unfortunately, this isn't the only song that I have run into this problem with (and the other scores don't have the same impossible key signature, but the results are the same), so it seems that I have to learn how to clean-up the scores. How do I do that, particularly as I am using recordings as accompaniment? I can't just go switch the notes up and down at will. If we take the Claire Bowen vocal score as a point of reference, after I have changed the staff properties instrument to tenor saxophone, do I need to move all of the notes up a whole step, down a half step, or something else entirely? I have enclosed an example of another score where I run into the same problem as well.
In reply to Thanks to everyone for the… by globetrotterdk
The problem occurs by switching between sharp and flat key signatures. And only for this measures where the respelling of the accidentals seems to be wrong you should correct it.
Inside your last attache files I did following:
In reply to The problem occurs by… by kuwitt
Wow! So it was just the first section that was throwing everything off and creating accidentals everywhere. Cool. Many thanks. A lot easier than Lilypond to sort out :)
In reply to Thanks to everyone for the… by globetrotterdk
Is this the finished score or do you want to do something else with it?
Upload a score and tell me what you you want to do with it, such as change to Tenor Sax playing in the Key of D-flat. You are doing something wrong. If you tell me what you want the final results to be, I will do it and give you the step by step instructions. Properly transposing a score does not introduce accidentals.
In reply to Thanks to everyone for the… by globetrotterdk
I think perhaps there are still a couple of misunderstandings here, so let me try again to clarify:
1) If you use transposing instruments the correct/intended way, everything works out perfectly - both key signatures and spelling of notes - except in the very specific case where the original has so many accidentals that transposing it literally would be impossible. In those cases and those cases only, MuseScore will need to respell the key signature to use flats instead of sharps (or vice versa as the case may be).
2) The notes themselves are always transposed correctly according to a literal interpretation of the instrument transposition. What this means is that in those specific cases where MuseScore needs to respell a key signature, the notes will be the correct pitch but with be spelled wrong (eg, you will see the note C# even though the key is Db). Probably some day we will look at a way of dealing with this better so the notes are not in conflict with the key.
3) In these cases and these cases only, you will need to take a very simple step to correct the spelling of the notes. We have said before the sequence is up then down. The idea is you are not actually changing the pitch, just the spelling. By using "up", you move everything up half step temporarily. By using "down", you move it tright back down again, so the pitch is exactly where it started - the pitch was correct to begin with. But since "down" always spell things with flats where appropriate, the effect will be to keep the original pitch - which was correct all along - but change the spelling to flats.
4) You can avoid all this entirely by simply not using keys with six or seven sharps for songs you intend to transpose for tenor saxophone. Instead, use the equivalent flat key - six or five flats respectively. Then everything works perfectly right out of the box, no workaround required.
5) This whole business is not some weird quirk of MuseScore, it is inherent in how the system of keys and pitch spelling is designed. Musicians have been struggling with these same issues since the 1700's at least. FWIW, the usual solution historically was to simply not use Bb instruments when playing in sharp keys. Saxophones weren't around then, but clarinets, trumpets, and horns were. Every professional clarinet player would be expected to own both Bb and A versions of his instrument; every trumpet player needed instruments in both Bb and C (often D as well); horn players owned horns in F and E or other keys or use so-called "crooks" that changed the key of the instrument on the fly. Composers writing music in sharp keys would specifically write for the A, C, D, or E versions of these instruments rather than the B or F versions. That avoided the problem of ending up in impossible keys; it also improved the intonation of the music.
In reply to I think perhaps there are… by Marc Sabatella
OT: And that is the reason, because I appreciate this forum. On the one hand to do my part of sharing my experiences with music and MuseScore. On the other hand to expose with special topics and learn from it ;-).
In reply to I think perhaps there are… by Marc Sabatella
Many thanks. Now I understand particularly #3 much better. In my experience, when purchasing sheet music, there are very often discrepancies between the published key and the recorded key (as in the Spotify or Google Play Music version). This makes everything much more opaque when my first priority is simply getting the sheet music into a MuseScore file, from which I can change instruments and/or transpose.
Your historical perspective was very interesting. I personally extremely enjoy playing a C Melody saxophone - not because it is tuned to the key of C and makes the issue of transposition simpler in most instances, but rather because I get much personal pleasure from the range of the C Melody saxophone (if it is a good, vintage saxophone). Interestingly, I tried out for a local amateur orchestra recently and only was accepted because I promised the conductor that I could play baritone sax. Despite Adolphe Sax's concept of the C Melody saxophone being an orchestral instrument, the reality has been of an instrument that is considered to be irrelevant today - even within at least some orchestras. But I digress... Thanks again for all of the help.