Extracting parts with key signature
Sorry to ask such a simple question to all you MS veterans, but I just extracted parts from a score and some of the parts extracted with a key signature, and some did not, with the right notes and accidentals only. I was able to insert the correct key signature on those parts, but I assume I shouldn't have to do that (what a time waster!) Does anyone have any idea why some parts would have the key signature and others would not? The score certainly has all the key signatures. Thanks.
Comments
You would need to attach the score. I have an idea but your rather short statement claims that I'm wrong.
There was a bug in some older version of MuseScore where this could happen under certain circumstances if you used the transposition function in the score and this changed the key; it could get out of sync with the part. This should not be the case in 3.5, but if the transposition happened in an earlier version, the error will already have happened.
As mentioned, if you attach the score, we can understand and assist better. Most likely simply re-adding the key to the score will fix it.
In reply to There was a bug in some… by Marc Sabatella
Ok. This brass octet arrangement is very much a work in progress, and was originally imported (boy does that really save time!) from a vocal transcription. There are no dynamics or phrasing, etc. yet, and I need to remove the "lyrics". The horn parts are purposefully sans key signature, since most horn players I know prefer to not have them. Anyway, hopefully the same issue will be apparent to you as far as inconsistent key signatures with part extractions. BTW- I did import this with version 3.5.
In reply to Ok. This brass octet… by asotuba@gmail.com
I'm confused by this score. It purports to be in concert pitch mode, and yet the key signatures differ between instruments, and not in the I might expect where everyone has the same key signature except horns that use the "open" key signature. The horns actually have no key signature, which means, C major, so the parts will transpose - probably not what you want indeed. But why is the trumpet 1 in three flats and trumpet 2 - as well as trombones and trombone in none? Did you deliberately go out of your way to create a polytonal score (e.g., adding key signatures using Ctrl)? Or maybe you used Tools / Transpose to transpose one staff only, and included the key signature in that transposition?
In reply to Ok. This brass octet… by asotuba@gmail.com
Well, now when I look through every version of the score, they all have no key signatures at all- they disappeared.I presume the one that I shared is that way also. I am frustrated.
In reply to Well, now when I look… by asotuba@gmail.com
It isn't clear what you want here. Is the piece meant to have a key signature or not? If you tell us the desired result in the score, we can advise better on how to achieve it.
In reply to Well, now when I look… by asotuba@gmail.com
OK. I put it back into 5 flats. But now I see that the 2nd horn is displaying correct enharmonic notes without a key signature. BUT the 1st horn won't do that if I go into the advanced setting for that instrument and uncheck the key signature as I apparently did with the 2nd part. It will delete the key signature, but it won't display the correct flats on individual notes, so I had to make the key visible on that one part again. I would very much like to know how to to do this correctly besides transposing the part! Anyway, I think this version 3 of the score will retain the key signatures when you look at it. This is rapidly becoming more trouble than it's worth...
I appreciate your time!
In reply to OK. I put it back into 5… by asotuba@gmail.com
While you are editing the score, don't worry about the layout. Let MuseScore show the key signatures so you know that an Ab on the horn is an Ab either because of the time signature or an accidental. It seems you goal is to follow the standard of having no key signature displayed for the horn and that's fine, but don't worry about that until the song is complete. You can then put the score in transposed pitch and apply a local "atonal" key signature to it so the key signature is suppressed and accidentals are shown in the score. Then when you generate parts MuseScore will handle it properly. Don't use the "Don't show key signature" option in staff properties.
In reply to While you are editing the… by mike320
>>You can then put the score in transposed pitch and apply a local "atonal" key signature to it so the key signature is suppressed and accidentals are shown in the score.<< That's the part I'm having trouble figuring out. How do you do that?
In reply to >>You can then put the score… by asotuba@gmail.com
Thank you, thank you for that link to the exact spot in the manual to deal with this. I didn't realize that the X was "open/atonal." Applying that as per instructions took care of that. I had tried the key of C signature before, but that just put it in a head-scratching one sharp. Fortunately, I'm making enough mistakes early on that with help from this community I'll be able to work quickly going forward. This program is so intuitive that if something is the least bit complicated it throws you big time ;) Thanks again. I tried to do the same project with Dorico ( trial version) a year ago and quickly gave up.
In reply to Thank you, thank you for… by asotuba@gmail.com
One other oddity- In bar 16 (and a few other places) both horn parts' Fs are yellowish on my screen rather than black like the other notes. What does this mean, and how can I make them just black like all the other notes? Thanks again (sigh...)
In reply to One other oddity- In bar 16… by asotuba@gmail.com
yellowish color That is a sign that the notes are out of the normal amateur's range. You can disable all of the color warnings (they turn red if MuseScore thinks it's out of a professional's range) in Edit->Preferences in the Note input tab uncheck Color notes outside of usable pitch range. You could also change the amateur and professional ranges in staff properties for each instrument if you want to.
In reply to That is a sign that the… by mike320
Thanks. Hard to believe any note in the staff could be considered out of anyone's range. Glad the mystery seems solved.
In reply to Thanks. Hard to believe any… by asotuba@gmail.com
I believe that if the horn range were terribly wrong the person I know to be a conservatory trained horn player would have said something by now and it would have been fixed. French horns (AKA horns in F) are strange instruments the way their notes are transposed due to historical reasons. Let's just say that there was a time Horn in F wasn't the most common.
In reply to Thanks. Hard to believe any… by asotuba@gmail.com
The written high "F" is playable by "most" horn players indeed, but would be pretty high for a lot of amateurs, Hence the yellowish color, rather than the red color indicating it's out of many professional players range as well. it's also worth noting that horn players tend to self-segregate into the high note specialists and the rest.
In reply to Thank you, thank you for… by asotuba@gmail.com
This program is so intuitive that if something is the least bit complicated it throws you big time
If it seems complicated you're probably doing it wrong. Either look it up in the manual or ask here. Common musical notation is never complicated in MuseScore.
In reply to This program is so intuitive… by mike320
VERY glad to hear that. Since my last post, I've been very productive, and it is an adventure to discover ways to do what I want and the shortcuts that go with them. Any clue about those strange note color things? It says they're black in the inspector, but don't look that way on the screen. Just a few notes. Thank you for your incredible patience. I'm not a newbie as an arranger, but I certainly am to this program.
In reply to OK. I put it back into 5… by asotuba@gmail.com
General observation: if this is your first time using MuseScore, you're doing well in a lot of ways! But, it probably would have been better to start with some simpler examples, as you've managed to make some mistakes along the way that are making the whole thing seem much harder than it actually would be had you done it correctly. And usually it's easier to learn how to do something correctly on simpler example where you won't blow quite as big a hole in your foot should you accidentally shoot yourself there :-)
In reply to General observation: if this… by Marc Sabatella
Actually, I did start with a much more simple file and then became over confident and wondered how this would work out in the real world. The editing I've done in the past 2 hours has exponentially deepened my appreciation of this fine bit of coding, though, and the types of things you have helped me with are the core of what I generally need to do with music software (brass quintet and ensemble arrangements and methods). I'm happy to post the completed arrangement when I finish it- you won't recognize it ;)
In reply to Actually, I did start with a… by asotuba@gmail.com
In case you guys would like to see how my first MS project turned out (score at least). I welcome any comments if you see something that bugs you and I could improve on. Hopefully it didn't get corrupted, has the key sigs, etc.....!
This is the most stimulation I've had in the past 6 months...Thanks
In reply to In case you guys would like… by asotuba@gmail.com
I want to hear the tuba player sing while he plays the notes. :-B
Most of the lyrics look like they belong to Tromobone 2 rather than the tuba 2 but the are attached to the tuba. If you want the lyrics I would suggest that you move them all under the tuba.
In reply to I want to hear the tuba… by mike320
Good idea. Actually, the text won't be on the printed parts- I just wanted conductors to have the text for reference. I'm a strong believer in trying to follow the phrasing of the text with instrumental transcriptions whenever possible, and I figured the bottom tuba part would be the least in the way. Thanks!
In reply to Good idea. Actually, the… by asotuba@gmail.com
I suspected as much so ended my joke with a toothy grin emoji.
The easy way to move all of the lyrics is to click the first, shift + click the last then press x to move them under the staff. When you generate parts you can make the lyrics invisible (select them and press v) in the part and they will remain visible in the main score.
In reply to I suspected as much so ended… by mike320
Thanks! That's good- I was just going to delete them on that part as I did with the other sets of lyrics in the original score. Didn't know there is an invisible lyrics option. Cool.
In reply to Thanks! That's good- I was… by asotuba@gmail.com
The existence of lyrics is linked between parts and the main score. The display of them is not linked. When you generate parts, the display will mostly follow the main score (i.e. visible and below the staff) but these can be changed in the parts as needed.
In reply to Ok. This brass octet… by asotuba@gmail.com
It seems my initial suspicion is correct. You looked at the score in concert pitch view, inserted local key signatures in the instruments so they looked transposed. Unfortunately this doesn't work. When you generate parts, they default to not being shown in concert pitch aka transposed pitch, so you end up with all kinds of strange notes and key signatures.
I suggest that you start over and look at the score in both concert pitch view (where all key signatures are the same) and non-concert pitch (key signatures will be different and correct for transposing instruments) view by clicking the concert pitch button. Enter and edit the notes in whichever view you want but be aware that in transposed pitch a C on a Bb trumpet is the same note as a Bb on a trombone while in concert pitch a C is always a C. Transposed pitch is what the musician normally plays from.
In reply to It seems my initial… by mike320
You are probably right- I may well have had the "concert pitch" button pushed without realizing it and wasted a lot of time trying to "fix" that. Anyway, please see if the version 3 I added a few minutes ago is correct now. Although, I can't seem to remove the key signature on the horn 1 part and keep the correct accidentals. Thanks!
In reply to You are probably right- I… by asotuba@gmail.com
Looking at the score it seems you managed to get the notes right, at least there is nothing obvious like a D in the horn and Db in the trombone. See my other reply about suppressing the horn key signatures.
In reply to Looking at the score it… by mike320
In an effort to keep the two horn parts consistent, I went back to the 2nd horn part and told the advanced setting to show the key signature again, which it did when I hit "apply". But now, the accidentals that were correct with no key signature are still there. This is an interesting exercise in frustration management for me...
In reply to There was a bug in some… by Marc Sabatella
While we're at it with this piece, there's another question I have- After saving a trumpet part, I tweaked the line breaks and stretched faster note bars a little (that is a great feature, since it automatically shrinks surrounding bars, elegantly!) and to enhance readability, esp. for non-professional players I'm writing for with this piece, it went over into a second page with just 3 lines. I want these three to line up with the other lines on page one, and the only way I could figure out how to do that was to eyeball it with the line spacers. One thing I liked a lot about Encore in those early days was the ability to just drag a whole line wherever you want it. This doesn't seem possible with MS, perhaps for good reason. Anyway, I attached this quick and dirty part so you can see what I'm talking about. If there is a way to easily maintain a previous page's line vertical spacing, I'm all ears.
In reply to While we're at it with this… by asotuba@gmail.com
Dragging a staff may be possible in the future, but for now, spacers accomplish the same goal. On the other hand, you shouldn't actually need them so much here. You can simply set the music top margin in Format / Style / Page to move the top system to the same position as on the first page. Since the title frame is 10sp high, and the gap below it is set to 7sp, this tells me 17sp would produce the desired result, and sure enough it does.
Not that this is necessarily a standard way of presenting music; to it seems like unnecessary work and wasted space to boot (not that you are hurting for space on the second page here, but in general it's a concern).
FWIW, if I were you I'd add a page break to even out the pages a bit and make things less dense. So instead of 9+3, maybe 8+4, 7+5, or even 6+6. Then delete the spacers that were really not helping. Simply by doing those two things - setting music top margin, adding a page break - you get much more even spacing for free, no need to muck with spacers. In other situations you might find tweaking your min & max values of system distance (in that same dialog) to be useful as well, but it's not needed here if you add a page break - the systems will space themselves fine using the current settings.
In reply to Dragging a staff may be… by Marc Sabatella
I appreciate your in depth advice! I was trying to keep the phrasing a little more together, but I certainly see your point, and would have likely come to a similar conclusion when I got to the point of seriously preparing the part. You are most generous with your time, and I'm hoping that with your and others' help I'll be able to fly through this app and regain some creativity.