Make Rehearsal marks also capable of attaching to other objects besides notes and rests (like clefs or bar numbers...)

• Jun 21, 2021 - 18:59

Rehearsal marks tend to be at the start of a new line (at least in my use). It would be nice to have them appear at a standard position every time (in relation to the page margin or cleff perhaps).

As of now the position and offset or the rehearsal mark is calculated from the note / rest it is attached to, so if the line starts with a different amount of elements, like repeat barline, has different key / time signature, – the actual position of the rehearsal mark will differ from the rest of them.

It would be nice to be able to select all the rehearsal marks, adjust the X and Y offset for them all and have them align nicely.

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I don't think attaching to other elements will really make sense because it won't be the right answer if the score layout changes - like the measure is not first of a system any more and thus doesn't even have a clef.

Instead, we've made the alignment options for the rehearsal mark influence how the marking is displayed in the measure. So depending on the specific result you are trying to achieve, it's often doable without offsets at all. We've made the different alignments correspond to the most common standards so most real-world use cases are handled automatically (eg, reproducing the look of established publishers).

If you attach your score and describe the specific result you are looking for in more detail, we can understand and assist better.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Thank you for your reply. You are right, I didn't think this through and even think what would happen if the layout changes.

Having that in mind, the functionality I'm after could be better formulated as:

if measure (is first measure of row AND has rehearsal mark AND has automatic placement):
then: check if (previous rows have rehearsal mark in first measure):
then: copy absolute x-axis value of previous rehearsal mark to current rehearsal mark

So the rehearsal marks of the first measures would all sit on the same invisible vertical line.

In my view, this would look better, but I understand if this is idiosyncratic and not something other are looking for. I'm able to achieve the same results by moving the rehearsal marks by hand one by one, so it's only really a matter of convenience.

In reply to by krumeluu

You could also simply make that horizontal offset part of the text style for rehearsal marks. Although that might not make sense if all marks are not at start of system. Again, if you attach your score and describe the desired results in more detail, we can understand and assist better. We did go to some lengths to make the most common published styles easily achievable through style settings.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

My attempts to explain my wishes have been pretty poor, sorry for that.

I've attached an (artificial) example score. If added 3 rehearsal marks and saved the text style to having a specific offset. I've then introduced (again, artificial, but just as an example) key change. The added key signature at the start of the line has the effect of moving the rehearsal mark 'B' forward on x-axis. Instead I would like it to appear similar to 'C', which I've moved by hand.

Maybe this is very minor concern. It's just that my use case involves a lot of transposing scores, so moving things by hand all the time to preserve a certain element position becomes a chore.

My previous 'solutions' have been pretty weak and nonsensical. Hopefully better explained, the feature I'm after would be something like:

If you have a single bar selected, you could attach a text element like rehearsal mark to the 'whole bar', probably the anchoring point being somewhere on the lowest x-axis value of that bar (like the barline separating the bar from the previous, or if it is the first bar of the line, the start coordinate of the whole line).

I suspect the bars in Musescore aren't really elements per se, so maybe that isn't achievable so easily.

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In reply to by krumeluu

Your explanation was as good as it could be absent the score, but the score definitely helps clarify :-)

What's still not entirely clear is where you'd like the rehearsal marks to be exactly in each of the possible configurations a bar can have - mid-system or start-of-system, clef or not clef, key signature or no key signature, etc. But as I said before, regardless of the precise desired result, attaching to the key signature or clef is absolutely the wrong way to achieve it. Consider, what if you change the location of the system breaks so letter C doesn't start a system anymore? There would be no key signature for it to attach to.

So, regardless of where you actually want it to appear, the way to get that to happen it to have appropriate sophisticated alignment options, to specify how the rehearsal mark is displayed if there is a key signature, if there is a clef, if the measure starts a system, etc.

In your case, adding offsets isn't good, as you've noticed. Probably you would be happier using the right-aligned option rather than the center option, and either no offset, or a small positive one. Ee tried to make the defaults for left, center, and right-aligned match those used by various major publishers, but no doubt other possibilities exist. Is there a particular publisher you are attempting to emulate here, and can you describe their rules in more detail? That would help as we try to understand how to refine the options we provide.

Bottom line, we want there to simply be options that produce the desired results automatically, here and elsewhere.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I think all the OP is saying is that in certain situations, rehearsal marks move from their original positions. His mark B in his score is out over the G major signature instead of closer to the beginning of the bar. If you change the key to C major, the mark moves back to where it should be. Change the key to Gb major again and the mark moves to the right. It's easy enough to drag it to the left again. This only happens if the mark is at the beginning of a line. I don't think he's talking about actual offsets. I can reproduce his results in a score of my own. I think he is asking for some kind of option to be able to attach marks to a bar line or clef as well as a note or rest. Kind of like his question says.
It it practical or necessary? Maybe not.

In reply to by bobjp

Not sure what you mean by "move from their original positions". As I have explained, we have rules that defined the alignment point for rehearsal marks in the presence of the various elements like key signature etc. Those rules are different for left, center, and right aligned, to emulate the most common standards actually used by publishers. So in most cases, simply choosing the correct alignment gives you the expected results right out of the box, not adjustment required. But in any case, marks never move on their own. They move only if you add elements to your score that require different alignment according to the normal rules of engraving.

But as I also mentioned, there are more than just two or three different standards, so if there are particular rules from a particular publisher you are trying to emulate, or if you wish to write up your own rules, it would indeed be good someday to support more customization of the rules implemented in MuseScore. None of that, though, should involve making the mistake of attaching a rehearsal mark to a key signature. The rehearsal mark should be attached to the measure either way, it's just a matter of whether it then gets aligned to the key signature or not - a simple setting we'd need to implement.

Again, to summarize - we don't need to change anything about how rehearsal marks are attached, we simply may need more options to control how they are aligned.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I'm not sure anything needs to be changed.
Scenario 1. I put rehearsal mark B on measure 3 of line 2 of a piece. There it is over the bar line. Now I change measure 3, line 2, to Gb major. The mark stays over the bar line as expected.

Scenario 2. Put the mark, instead, at the first measure of line two. Change the key of that measure to Gb major. The mark in now over the center of the key signature instead of at the beginning of the measure. Or, as I put it, "moved from its original position."

This what the OP was showing in his attachment. Is it a big deal? Surely not. I just drag it back where it was.

I'm not sure of a need of options to control how they are aligned. The Gb major key change at the beginning of a line seems like a rare thing to me. Yet it seems interesting that the mark re-aligns only in that instance (so far). I suppose it could be that the default is to align in the center of a key signature at the start of a line (because there may not be a bar line).

In reply to by bobjp

"Is it a big deal? Surely not. I just drag it back where it was."

You are right, when writing a score it is really no biggie.

In my use case though, I tend to transpose a large number of scores I've written and 'typesetted' before. This leads to a situation where all of the numerous rehearsal marks of the score have moved from the position I have chosen before in the key a had written the score originally.
By multiplying the number of scores to transpose by the average amount of rehearsal marks in a score is where things get pretty tedious. Still not a major issue, but tedious.

But I suspect this isn't something people 'usually' do. But being a freelance musician, changing the key of a whole score is something you end up doing every week when you are playing with different singers and soloists all the time.

I don't mean to sound whiny, just trying to explain where I'm coming from. I'm really thankful of this software and there are plenty of reasons why I use it and not something else.

In reply to by krumeluu

I understand, believe me.
On the other hand, I kind of count as a minor miracle that we can even do things like change the key of a piece at all. I go back to when this would all have to be done on paper by hand. That meant pretty much not at all.

Good for you that you are out there doing it with your music.

In reply to by bobjp

Totally, agreed.

This topic may be regarded as "SOLVED", as the issue is minor and the original feature suggestion was faulty.
I'll issue a new thread after, say 6 months, if I still haven't found inner peace and if this still then seems worthwhile. :)

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