tab rhythm signs are below staff

• Nov 8, 2021 - 10:55

I am trying to make a simple 2 part lute tab piece. I decided to use two voices for this so that it sounds right. However the rhythm signs for the second voice ended up below that tab staff.

  1. How can I get the 2nd voice rhythms above the staff

  2. How can I combine the first and 2nd voices so that they come out right. For example in the first measure, the top voice has two half notes, but together with the second voice the signs should be notated as one half note and two quarter notes.

  3. Related question: how can I double the value of the rhythm signs.

version 3.6.2.548020600 Revision 3224f34

Thank you in advance.

Attachment Size
Der Hoff Dantz.mscz 13.82 KB

Comments

First of all you'd need to fix the corruption: "Measure 16, Staff1, Voice 2 too long. Expected: 2/2; Found: 6/4
That might fix/answer your 2nd question already

1) by swapping voice 1 and 2. Probably not what you want...
2) see above?
3) by doubling the duration of the corresponding notes

In reply to by cadiz1

After rereading your request, I see that it contains a contradiction, or simply an impossibility. You write: "I decided to use two voices for this so that it sounds right"
That is, each voice contains rhythmically the right notes values.
In this case, the only way to reach it is as MuseScore does, i.e. to display a voice 1 above and a voice 2 below (like the file I attached - and yours)
You understand that it is not possible to display two voices with different rhythms in the same place. It would be incomprehensible and a pure mess.
So, if you want everything to be displayed above, you must necessarily use only one voice.
Like Gerbode does for example - image below. But of course, the playback will be more choppy and it will be up to the player to determine what is held or not etc.
In short, you have to make a choice and give preference to either: : playback (2 voices, above/below), or display above, with notes values in 1 voice.

voix1.jpg

In reply to by cadiz1

Thank you. So you are saying it is impossible to have it notated properly, as Sarge has done, and sound as it would if played properly. Okay, I understand and can live with that. I just didn't know it was impossible.

Perusing some answers about merging, it seems that is not going to work, no? Maybe I could select all and minimize the values to one flag or two. Anyone done something like that? Sorry this is only the second piece for me. I still know nothing.

In reply to by yonah_ag

No, we come back to the starting point, if you change voice 2 for voice 3, all the symbols are up, but rhythmically, it's wrong: there are too many beats (5 beats for example in the first measure), and we don't know, e.g. for the first dotted quarter note, to which voice it belongs. And so on, for following measures.
voices.jpg

In reply to by cadiz1

It's technically rhythmically correct as the overall rhythm is exactly the same as using voices 1 and 2. There are not really too many beats because they are in different voices and this distinction can be shown by using colours or shorter stems.

In reply to by yonah_ag

Using colors to indicate the different voices of the polyphony in historical lute tablatures simply does not exist.

"It's technically rhythmically correct as the overall rhythm is exactly the same as using voices 1 and 2."
No.

In reply to by edurbrow

Forget with two voices. See previous reply (links: Piano Roll, and "Let Ring" plugout)

EDIT: "So you are saying it is impossible to have it notated properly, as Sarge has done, and sound as it would if played properly."
By using one voice, it's notated properly, as Sarge Gerbode has done (and it's the historical display, i.e. all rhythm symbols above the staff)
For a properly playback, you should use other ways: "Piano roll" etc. Sarge Gerbode don't use them. You can listen with Fronimo (free version) its files, the playback is choppy.
This is not its purpose and concern. These sound files are just a temporary help (a first listening) before going to the Pdf file itself.

In reply to by cadiz1

Yes, I get it. I'm not overly concerned with playback, just on an accurate tab score. So how do I salvage some of this so I don't have to start from zero? I tried to select one voice, but I can't. If I click on one cypher as soon as I click on another with the shift key held down, it puts a blue frame around the measure. I cannot figure out how to merge these voices. Searching for answers to this question seems to indicate that it is possible to merge staves, but it doesn't look easy or straightforward. I could find nothing about merging verses within ONE staff.
Thank you in advance.

In reply to by yonah_ag

Wowl... nice job on feeding your creation lute TAB to see what happens!
Now all the 16th century lutenists who are "Lute TAB only" players can enjoy this enhanced playback. It is quite a remarkable difference comparing the playback.of the two identically notated lute scores -- one without, and one with, 'Let Ring'.

In reply to by Jm6stringer

My understanding is that the numeric/fretwise underpinnings of guitar and lute tablature are the same. But to display French lute tablature an encoding system replaces the chars 0 through 9 with glyphs a through j. (Note that Italian tablature uses numbers like modern tablature.)

So for French tablature:

0 displays a
1 displays b
2 displays r    (r because a con a tablaure line may look like an e)
and so on:
3 = d
4 = e
5 = f
6 = g
7 = h
8 = i
9 = j

I thought the encoding might exist in the font itself, by having:

    the lute a glyph in the Unicode UTF-8 encoding slot U+0030 (for the char 0)
    the lute b glyph in the Unicode UTF-8 encoding slot U+0031 (for the char 1)
    etc.

UTF-8 encoding for numeric chars (small).png

But that wouldn’t account for fret numbers higher than 9 … and when I set the fontFace for lute tab to MuseScore Tab Sans, the letters a through j persist for numbers 0 through 9 (UTF-8 U+0030 through U+0039. So museScore must have an internal mechanism that handles the situation, and allow k for 10, ** l** for 11, m for 12

… unless the lute font has a 10 glyph at U+003A, an 11 glyph at U+003, etc.

Anybody know how this is managed?

More on Unicode font encoding.

In reply to by edurbrow

"ALL the rhythm signs should be above the stave. If I could figure out how to do that, "
As already said, the only way is to enter all notes in 1 voice - image below
(so, with known limitation for playback, except by using indicated tools)
If not, you will encounter this problem: https://musescore.org/en/node/326269#comment-1103890

voices1.jpg

EDIT: Eventually, what can be done is to write the score with a lute all in 1 voice, and then redo it with another lute in 2 voices. Then, disable the playback of the first lute, and hide (in the Instruments dialog) the display of the second one. But this requires more work.
This gives (after having deactivated the playback of the first instrument/lute): 2Der Hoff Dantz.mscz
Then, after having hidden the second instrument: 3Der Hoff Dantz.mscz
And now, you have the appropriated display and better playback. But, as said, more work... :)
Is it worth it since you say you are not too attached to playback?

I'm getting much closer to the way it should appear. I used Tools -> Implode on the score yonah_ag sent me and then used Tools -> Voices -> Exchange Voices (I think. I can't believe I've forgotten exactly what I did 5 minutes ago!) I then went in Normal mode and deleted superfluous notes. Now I've got all the rhythm signs above the staff, but I'd like to get rid of all the unnecessary ones. In the original German tab it has a rhythm sign for every note or chord, but in conventional modern French tab transcriptions they usually don't put in a rhythm sign unless the rhythm changes. I can't click and delete the individual rhythm signs.

Also, I can see the line breaks are still there, but the lines are split between them. For example, line one should have 7 measures not just 4, lines 2 & 3: 8 measures, line 4: 7 measures, line 5: 8 measures, line 6: 7 measures and the last line just 3 measures. That would correspond to the German tab.

Attachment Size
Der Hoff Dantz - LR.mscz 19.56 KB

In reply to by edurbrow

"In the original German tab it has a rhythm sign for every note or chord, but in conventional modern French tab transcriptions they usually don't put in a rhythm sign unless the rhythm changes. "

Right, but choosing to display "Stems and Beams" is anachronistic for a score of that period (although it is convenient nowadays, I understand) and not intended by the programm.
That's why the "Repeat" function (Never, Always etc.) is disabled. See:
repeat.jpg
However, when you choose to display the "Note symbols", then it becomes active.
In short, you have to make choices :)

repeat1.jpg

EDIT: in this case (Never repeat, with Note symbols), you can get: 4'Der Hoff Dantz-5.mscz

In reply to by edurbrow

Screen shots? Right-click on the TAB -> Staff/parts properties -> Advanced style properties

"I want to transcribe this into modern French tab and notation so everybody can understand it."

Yes, I completely understand your project. Except that the program, as it was designed by an early music specialist, indicates a contradiction for both historical fret marks (with numbers or letters) and a modern stems and beams display.
And the display of note symbols is perfectly clear (as you say, sometimes rhythms are shown only when they change). Any lute player can understand it.
Then, free of you to make compromises as you like, it will be your choice.

In reply to by cadiz1

I don't understand what you are saying about stems and beams not existing historically. Do you mean like the grid system where they cross beams over stems for several notes? You can find all kinds of flag systems at nearly any time in the 16th century. Marco da Aquilla, for example, notates exactly like "modern" French tab, that is one flag and then lots of notes with the same value. Hans Newsidler uses a grid system, Judenkünig uses a separate flag for every note.... There is an example of almost every system at all times in the 16th cen. It just depends on the typesetter or scribe.

What I'm trying to do is notate this in a modern way. I want French tab and a score transcription. I haven't figured out how to get G and F clef (piano) notation to display at the same time. I think it will be a disaster, now that I've reduced the note value to get it to look right.

I really appreciate your help with this. You know your tab!

In reply to by edurbrow

Yes, there are several displays at this time, but again, not in the modern stems AND beams STYLE.
" Marco da Aquilla, for example, notates exactly like "modern" French tab, that is one flag and then lots of notes with the same value."
Not exactly :) Flags and no beams.
See this facsimile of Dal Aquila's ricercar 33:
aquila.jpg

In reply to by cadiz1

So when you say modern beam style, do you mean where beams are over repeated notes? I prefer this Marco-type style. I think it is the easiest for people to understand.

I will never make the mistake of putting the lute tab in two voices again. What a mess. It must be hard to make a proper lute tab together with a transcription in piano notation that reflects the voice leading in Musescore. I may have to do them separately.

In reply to by edurbrow

"So when you say modern beam style, do you mean where beams are over repeated notes?"
If we are thinking the same thing, yes (English is not my mother tongue)
"I will never make the mistake of putting the lute tab in two voices again. What a mess"
Wise decision.

In reply to by yonah_ag

Hi yonah,

I see those rests when I toggle the staff type to Standard, but I didn't see a way to reveal rests in the tablature, though I did look for a way to do so. How did you make the rests show in tablature while retaining the French style? Seeing them in the tablature would help me in clearing them out, which is essential in producing the desired rhythmic symbols.

scorster

I don't know anything about this composer nor the piece itself, but the underlying rhythm sounds distinctly like a triple meter.

So I ventured a new rendering where:

  • the meter is 3/2
  • all notes are in voice 1, to keep rhythmic notation above the staff
  • note durations are increased a) to eliminate pointless rests, b) to make it sound smoother, c) to allow MuseScore to produce correct lute rhythmic duration symbols

      Der Hoff Dantz - 1 voice 3-2 meter LR_0.mscz

This may not take the score in a direction you want, but it shows some possibilities.

scorster

In reply to by scorster

This is one of the topics of my little lecture. Barlines at this time were pretty meaningless. The composer is JudenKönig and this was published in 1515 in German tablature, which I don't think Musescore can do.
Your version in 3 and in notes may be useful. Thank you.

In reply to by edurbrow

"The composer is JudenKönig and this was published in 1515 in German tablature, which I don't think Musescore can do."

I confirm, the German tablature (understood and used by some specialists) is not supported by MuseScore.
One can understand why :)
(image below)

tablature allemande.jpg

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