Swing Ratio currently defined in integers only
Currently we can enter Swing Ratio in two ways:
• in Format>Style>Score
• by a Staff Text property
... but in either case MuseScore only accepts an integer value.
Is that because the swing method can't operate on a swing ratio as a real number ? Or are we needlessly limited by the input menu or field?
If we want something exacting—like a 2/3 ratio—then 66.67% would be closer than 67 or 66%.
Thanks!
scorster
Comments
Are you seriously saying that you, or anyone, hear the difference between a 66% and. 67% swing? Or would hear the difference between 67% and 66,67%?
In reply to Are you seriously saying… by Jojo-Schmitz
I have to say, though, it does bother me ever so slightly that 2/3 isn't exactly representable. Sin ce that's a reasonably common value for people to want. it would be nice to have a more direct way of doing it. Same for dotted eighth / sixteenth. This can be done precisely, but you have to do the math. I could imagine the dialog providing options for "triplet", "dotted", and "custom percentage".
In reply to I have to say, though, it… by Marc Sabatella
Two decimal points would work for me. Then I could define textbook "2/3" swing as 66.67%. Though not ultimately exact, we can't enter work with 66.66666 ...
And at 66.67% I think any difference exits the realm of perception.
Thanks!
scorster
In reply to Are you seriously saying… by Jojo-Schmitz
@Jojo Are you seriously saying that you, or anyone, hear the difference between a 66% and 67% swing? Or would hear the difference between 67% and 66.67%?
Played without the context of notes in another voice or staff, no ... of course not. So thanks for leading me to clarify.
In the contexts recently discussed—where I can instruct MuseScore to play "interpreted swung eighth notes" on the 66% swung upbeat and MusesScore sounds the third triplet note literally (presumably at 66.67%)—then yes. I'm pretty sure I am hearing it. And upon hearing misaligned notes I checked to see if I had failed to set swing to a full 2/3 ratio, and that's when I saw that this is not possible, due to the integer constraint. And granted tempo is a factor.
I haven't done a calculation, but if the notes are more than 30 to 40ms apart it's likely the average person could perceive two distinct nearly simultaneous onsets, for instance: one for a swung 66% upbeat and one for the onset of the triplet note at 67%. I expect that amount of separation is in the range of "just noticeable difference" as frequently affirmed in discussions of the Haas Effect and Precedence Effect.
Please note, for clicks and percussive hits temporal fusion occurs below when the separation is 10 to 20ms. This is all based on "perceptual science" ... in other words reports of what people perceive. So indeed it can vary from person to person. But these numbers are widely supports by the research.
scorster
In reply to @Jojo Are you seriously… by scorster
Years ago I was engineer and producer at a recording session. I immediately noticed that, to my ear, the performers had an instrumentation alignment which resulted in the mandolin being trampled when it played "in unison" with the fiddle. Well, you could hear an annoying clicking of the mandolinists pick, but the mandolin's tone and warmth were lost. (Perhaps the overall excitement caused the fiddler to play further forward, leading the band.)
I suggested that the mandolinist try leading the fiddle slightly but it was soon evident that the concept was lost on them. I expected that any further instruction (or rehearsal) of the idea would make them feel uneasy and put them off their game. And to their credit, other than that singular issue, everything was precise, smooth, and well played. They were in good spirits and ready to go.
So I decided to drop the topic and simply adjust the timing in the mix. And the session went well.
When mixing I easily shifted the location of the fiddle back about 35ms. Then I bumped the mandolin forward about 20ms. As a result the mandolin's presence dramatically increased ... without turning up its volume, which would have been rather futile, because then all instruments would compete purely by decibels, whereas the actual solution lies in note separation. Naturally the fiddle remained nicely audible, because its notes have much longer tails than those of the mandolin, while the mandolin's notes are always fading in amplitude decay. Additionally the mix improved when I delayed the bass a bit.
When the band returned the next day to hear the mix one member declared, “Great recording! I don’t think we ever sounded that good. When I heard the raw takes last night I certainly didn’t think we sounded this good!”
I didn’t mention anything.
On a similar front, once in talking with Darol Anger I asked if he consciously played slightly behind David Grisman’s mandolin when playing in unison or harmonizing. He enthusiastically said, “Oh, yeah. I like to get inside the note where possible.”
I thought that was a great concept from a true rhythmic master: get in after the onset of the mandolin (its single moment of maximum volume and clarity) and also get out somewhere during the mandolin note’s decay, before the tail becomes inaudible. That way you hear the mandolin surrounding the fiddle note. Obviously a fiddler can’t get out before the end of every mandolin note, especially at high speed, but it’s possible to get feather the fiddle out on the longer notes.
And, as shown, if you really want to fully hear the mandolin in unison with a fiddle, each the fiddle note started after the mandolin's notes. And this all occurs subtly in the 30 to 50ms range, on the fly, sometimes at lightly speeds.