Double repeat sign forces clef to be displayed in between
While editing Musescore allows clef change on the beginning measure after the double repeat sign. But when the document is saved and reopened, double repeat sign is split and clef appears in the space between. Is there a workaround?
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Clef_repeat.mscz | 7.97 KB |
Comments
If you're seeing the clef change after the repeat, that's a bug - the proper place is between, since the clef is presumably changing only once. If there is a second change within the repeated section, the proper place to indicate the return to the first clef would be at the end of that second section.
So, your score so far is correct as is. There is only one change from bass to treble, so it goes outside of any repeat signs.
In reply to IUf you're seeing the clef… by Marc Sabatella
:||: treble ... or :| treble |:
Well, it could be that both are correct from the point of correctness of notation. But in typesetting tradition it is desirable not to split that double repeat sign.
In reply to :||: treble ... or … by Arahant
Traditions change - in previous centuries it was probably more common to place clef changes within repeats, but in modern times perhaps not so much. If you're trying to reproduce a historic edition and want to get those details as the original editor had them, you'll have to use offset and/or leading space adjustments on the clef/barline to get this. And yes, there are existing requests that additional customization controls be added for this, so hopefully that happens someday.
In reply to Traditions change - in… by Marc Sabatella
You are perfectly right. I have consulted the manual: "Behind Bars Guide To Music Notation". In the modern standard notation: clef, time signature and key signature all appear before the repeats.
![Screenshot 2022-08-31 221602.png]( "Screenshot 2022-08-31 221602.png")
![Screenshot 2022-08-31 215618.png]( "Screenshot 2022-08-31 215618.png")
And as you have pointed above, if the change occurs between the repeat signs, it must be reinstated at the very end before the repeat barline.
I personally am not so happy with this in the case where the music is very simple and clef is used only for the reason of interpreting pitches, and my reason for this is that it disturbs the horizontal flow for the sight reading. So in my opinion old masters had felt it correctly to insert the clef after the double repeat sign, for the kind of music that they wrote and performed. They simplified it well. Of course this is only the matter of preference, and maybe such practice shouldn't survive. After all we do need firm standard if possible. Musescore at least allows me to save .pdf in the form I prefer.
Just out of curiosity now I am wondering about the more complicated situation, how would I notate this in Musescore:
In particular it seems to be hard to change clef, reset key signature and time signature at the very end before the repeat sign ? If this requires many tweaks to achieve, should we ask this to be a new feature to adjust automatic resetting at the very end of the repeat section?
In reply to You are perfectly right. I… by Arahant
Yes, there should definitely be a way of forcing the change either before the repeat, after, or between the double repeat. Meanwhile, workaround is the same as the other case, manual adjustments to leading space and offset.
I'm not really understanding what is "simpler" about moving it within the repeats, though. To me it's much more likely to cause confusion, because at the moment someone jumps back to the beginning, they see the treble clef again, and they start may thinking, "oh no, why is there a treble clef here when I thought I was already in treble clef, was I playing it wrong all this time?" Kind of the same reason why people think it might be confusing to have too many courtesy accidentals, but there, I think, it's obvious from giving people music without them that they will often mess up otherwise, just human nature. I don't think repeating the clef does anyone any favors because they weren't likely to forget.
That said, once again, yes, no reason not to provide options.
In reply to Traditions change - in… by Marc Sabatella
I have tried to recreate the last example by using the fake measure. Probably not the most direct way, but it looks close to the desired.
![Screenshot 2022-08-31 232119.png]( "Screenshot 2022-08-31 232119.png")
I guess this would be too much work in a larger piece with frequent changes, so I guess it would be desirable that Musescore would handle this automatically.
In reply to IUf you're seeing the clef… by Marc Sabatella
Also Musescore does allow for
:||: [clef change]
it just doesn't allow saving it and reopening it.
![Screenshot 2022-08-31 183849.png]( "Screenshot 2022-08-31 183849.png")
In reply to Also Musescore does allow… by Arahant
And that's a bug, IMHO
In reply to IUf you're seeing the clef… by Marc Sabatella
Second thought:
Highlighting first note in the measure and changing clef causes clef to be displayed INSIDE that measure.
Highlighting the entire measure and changing clef causes clef to be displayed BEFORE that measure.
Perfect. So it would be so wonderful this consistency works with double repeat sign, i.e. it is a free choice.
In reply to Second thought: Highlighting… by Arahant
Strange:
![clefs.png]( "clefs.png")
The first got applied to the measure with the start-repeat, the 2nd to the 1st rest after the start-repeat.
The 2nd initially showed after the barline and small (so looked promising), but moved to before and turned big after close/reopen
Something is wrong here
In reply to Strange: [inline:clefs.png]… by Jojo-Schmitz
The smaller size is desirable. Only the first clef at the beginning of the system should be full size, all others 2/3 of the original.
In reply to The smaller size is… by Arahant
Sure, that makes that clef applied to a rest even more strange and buggy
In reply to Sure, that makes that clef… by Jojo-Schmitz
My wish would be this one:
Create clef by referencing the first note/rest in the bar would put the clef INSIDE the bar, just like it does for the note/rest in the middle of the bar.
Create it by referencing the entire measure would put it BEFORE the bar.
And finally clef pulls key and time signature.
For the repeats it would also add suggested change clef/key/time at the end of the repeat.
In reply to My wish would be this one:… by Arahant
That's my expectation too. This not happing currently is a bug IMHO
In reply to That's my expectation too… by Jojo-Schmitz
Perfect. Thank you!
In reply to Perfect. Thank you! by Arahant
I don't see it having been reported in the issue tracker yet, would you mind to do it?
In reply to I don't see it having been… by Jojo-Schmitz
I will. And coincidentally I discovered more bugs related to this. If you try to change not only clef but also key and time signature before the repeat, Musescore will remove repeat sign, and it is hard to get all these elements to stand before the bar as it should.
I will use now some time to document all these behaviors, to write the complete bug report.
In reply to I will. And coincidentally I… by Arahant
For time sig that's probably by design, as it then rewrites all barlines
In reply to For time sig that's probably… by Jojo-Schmitz
Ah, yes. You are right.
First time signature before creating repeat bars, then all the rest.
And it is logical. OK, that's fine.
In reply to I don't see it having been… by Jojo-Schmitz
I have posted it in the issue tracker. Also I have mentioned that new feature about the reset.
https://musescore.org/nb/node/334806
In reply to I have posted it in the… by Arahant
Thanks, better: #334806: Double repeat sign forces clef (attached to 1st chord/rest) to be displayed in between the repeate barlines __and__ with wrong size
In reply to Second thought: Highlighting… by Arahant
.