Just intonation plugin
Hello. I would just like to let you know about my just intonation plugin.
Since developers used the original plugins that served as base for this in Musescore 4, I hope this one will run in Musescore 4. I'll be thankful if some developer decide to include it on the mainstream development of MS4.
Here is the link:
Comments
Thank you for your work entering all these data, playing with these options is just a click away.
With the new MuseSounds violins, it'd be interesting to know how some scores sound if they're in Just intonation, it's a pity MuseHub wouldn't install on my laptop.
I think the overview on the plugin download page needs rephrasing, I do not understand that sentence with two comma, two slashes and two where.
This plugin provides extra options, expanding from the tuning profile "Just" from this plugin which is "C Minor / Major" or "tuning10" in this plugin, correct?
In reply to Thank you for your work… by msfp
The link you sent me is from the original plugin that wasn't developed by me. I just forked it, adding more options and different tunings.
Please, see if my rephrasing is better now.
As for C minor / major have you found anything wrong? Can you point out what it is?
In reply to The link you sent me is from… by fernandoamartin
The new overview page is perfect, thank you. Playing with all these new options are fun, these music sound quite different yet familiar.
C minor / major is good. I recalled I used to play with that older plugin, it had one "Just" tuning. I'm still wrapping my head around the tuning coding logic, so I'm curious if that tuning is the same as your C minor/major coz they sound similar.
In reply to The new overview page is… by msfp
If you are able to make good music in just intonation I would like to know and to hear it. After entering all those values, I tried to apply just intonation to a classical piano piece of mine and passing tones and chords that does not belong to the key sound so suddenly highlighted, sometimes out of tune. I found out that the challenge is not only having the values but also organizing the music in such a tuning.
In reply to The new overview page is… by msfp
If you are able to make good music in just intonation I would like to know and to hear it. After entering all those values, I tried to apply just intonation to a classical piano piece of mine and passing tones and chords that does not belong to the key sound so suddenly highlighted, sometimes out of tune. I found out that the challenge is not only having the values but also organizing the music in such a tuning.
In reply to If you are able to make good… by fernandoamartin
I'm not gifted with such talent. I had fun fooling around applying tunings to random long double stops or triads, or on scores downloaded from musescore.com such as this one. I noticed my brain usually try to accept the few bars at the beginning, soon enough everything'd sound out of tune and not enjoyable anymore.
Do you know this scordatura plugin ? it's loads of fun too.
In reply to I'm not gifted with such… by msfp
I know that to make just intonation work we need to apply different key tuning to each chord change. But even doing so after I start to move farther from the home key, things start to sound more and more out of tune.
Some claim that good string quartets and vocal choors are able to play just, but I truly don't know how.
Before moving further, after some tests and checks it seems there are some wrong values. If someone finds, please, tell me.
In reply to Before moving further, after… by fernandoamartin
I corrected the wrong values.
I also attached the LibreOffice sheet where I calculated the values and from where I exported them to the plugin, that allows to visualize the chords formed at each tuning.
I hope it works this time.
In reply to I corrected the wrong values… by fernandoamartin
edit: this post is wrongly based on an outdated version of plugin, see the other post below
After spending some time reading up on intonation, i know more about cents, but now i find myself more confused. I think i understand the old plugin by reading this. How do you come up with data used in your plugin?
please let me know what webpage i should read
In reply to After spending some time… by msfp
Have you downloaded the recently updated version of the plugin. In my first uploaded I typed some wrong values that I corrected later.
Answering your questions the best I can:
Whenever you find a combination of fifths generating 701.955 they will sound pure, major thirds 386.3137 and minor thirds 315.6413, are all pure. You need to apply a tuning to a selection that will generate chords with those values. That's where the spreadsheet comes in. It shows what chords will sound pure in a given tuning of the plugin and what will not. Generally, chords that do not match the values above will sound odd.
This plugin cannot cover all the possibilities. Just intonation is so complex that it was replaced by several other temperaments in western classical music. It would be extremely complicated or even impossible to tune just in all the works of great composers. I don't remember a single webpage that explains it all. I read many of them.
When I tune an excerpt and make the main chords pure, its more a matter of ear or taste to decide which tuning will sound good to non-chord tones like second and so on.
In reply to Have you downloaded the… by fernandoamartin
Thank you for explaining the concept of just intonation, but it is not my intention to learn more about intonation. I should have ask more carefully.
i'm insterested in your plugin , not intonation. How do you come up with data used in your plugin?
The area i'm interested in:
You said on plugin overview " ... major /... minor, where the second is lower to make a pure second minor chord. "
In .ODS file, some cells are under "Ab major / F minor" , they includes the cell B4 (I#,863) = B3+70.9724.
why is that value 70.9724 second minor, where can i find the same data? please ignore this question if it is a trade secret :) I found something similar to be 112: see "B to C" in this wik but wiki is "B to C" in Five-limit tuning . Also 90.22 for D based pythagorean: see "D to Eb" in this wiki but that is pythagorean "D to Eb". My best guess is 100 cents - 30 cents from the monochord of this doc but why not 70.0000 then?
![where70.PNG]( "where70.PNG")
why do you create the pure minor second versions? what situation in a song do you recommend to use it? As far as I know, musescore use equal intonation by default, I sucessfully used "Pythagorean" setting from the original plugin by another dev for double stops in fifths ; and "Just" setting from that plugin for double stops in thirds
You also said on plugin overview " ... minor /... major version, where the second is higher to make a pure major fifth chord."
I understand the commonly used pythagorean intonation is derived from pure fifth intervals.
I think you answered the question "701.955=pure fifth" already. the answer is yes. Thank you.
I must apologize that i used the outdated version earlier carelessly, the following screenshot is updated version. In .ODS I created a new column and set Bb's Offset cell value to 0.00 (highlighted cells)
I tried to match my new column in .ODS to a setting in your plugin, as shown in the following screenshot. . Some still do not match: C=-39.1 in plugin, C=25.4 in .ODS, which makes me think:
either
B. I used wrong setting in plugin, the plugin shown in screenshot do not use data row 63 to 74 from the .ODS data.
Am I correct to understand your .ODS this way? are data in .ODS's "Offset" column = base values in plugin's "Final offset" ?
which row of cells in .ODS should I read if I set the plugin as shown in screenshot?
Muchas gracias
In reply to Thank you for explaining the… by msfp
I'll try to summarize things because it's a very huge and complex subject.
For example :
In the progression C Am Dm G, we need to tune D lower in Dm chord but higher in the G chord. That's why I made two tunings for each key.
In the progression C A D G, we need a C#, but in a tritone substitution or in a neapolitan sixth, we need a D flat. Again I tried to cover those possibilities with two tuning for each key.
Of course, possibilities are endless and my plugin is not enough for all of them. But I had to make some basic decisions according to common possibilities.
The ods is just to show what chords will sound pure and what will be out of tune in a given tune. However the plugin allows for custom values in any circumstances.
In reply to I'll try to summarize things… by fernandoamartin
Hi fernandoamartin, thank you for your example, you are correct intonation's complex, I think I need more time for the new knowledge to sink in before further analyzing the compromise you made in your plugin. I'm prying open the other plugin too, to study just intonation logic better so that I create and use audio to train my ear in future violin cello duet. see my bugfix for history more than 30 for other plugin
In reply to Hi fernandoamartin, thank… by msfp
Can you explain to me how the tweak option of the plugin works?