Arco To Pizz Playback Is Not Correct
The first note when switching back from arco to pizz is played back as arco+pizz, in MuseScore 4.5.2 on MacOS Sonoma 14.5. The tempo here is 100 bpm.
Workaround : which is really a pain, is to put the pizz on 'voice 2' and hide the 'voice 1' rests etc.
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Comments
I don't hear anything. Which is to be expected when "listening" to a .JPG file. :-)
Please attach a score file (.MSCZ) that demonstrates the problem so that we can try to find what's happening.
In reply to I don't hear anything. Which… by TheHutch
This reperoduces the issue on my computer, although the bass seems to playback correctly, all the other string parts have a pizz+arco sound at same time for the first note after changing to pizz.
In reply to This reperoduces the issue… by malcolmmccaff
This may be related , have also have found in the strings (but yet to work if it occurs more widely) at least in some cases the dynamics articulations like piano also don't apply - i select the note, apply dynamic piano, but the dynamic doesn't take affect until next note in the phrase.
In reply to This may be related , have… by malcolmmccaff
I'm unable to replicate either of your problems in your score or one I created myself. I played the entire score and then played each instrument separately. Pizzicato and arco both played normally ... and used the dynamics in the file.
I've attached my score and a .MP3 of what it sounds like on my system. Does the score sound the same way on YOUR system as it does on mine?
What is the source of this score? Did you input it by hand? Import from .MIDI or .PDF? Get it from someone else?
In reply to I'm unable to replicate… by TheHutch
Input was by hand using mouse and keyboard shortcuts. Here is attached playback, you can hear the pizz+Arco sound is blended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRN_zW9euE&ab_channel=TheMcCafferyFami…
In reply to Input was by hand using… by malcolmmccaff
You file plays back correctly on my system, so it seems to be triggered only in certain scenarios. I do a lot of strings writing and only just came across this, i only do manual input with keyboard shortcuts and/or mouse.
In reply to You file plays back… by malcolmmccaff
If I change your file to Violins (section) instead of solo violin, then I get the issue with the playback, without changing the rest of file at all. So it seems to affect the ensemble strings sound only.
In reply to If I change your file to… by malcolmmccaff
When I change my file to Violins (ensemble), etc. I still don't hear your issue. Definitely some problem on your system, rather than in the application.
... and it works when you put it on Voice 2 ...
Well, hopefully someone else can take this and find something. I'm at a loss.
[A moment later] Well, now that I've listened to your YouTube vid, I don't hear it on your system either. *shrug*
Some observations, if I may.
I'm not sure I understand what "arco+pizz" means. Is it about the attack of the note? Is it about the length of playback? Is it only in Muse sounds? How could we hear an arco start of a note if there is also a pizz. I would think that the pizz would over take the arco.
In any event those of us using Basic sounds aren't really hearing the same thing the OP does.
Here's what I hear:
Muse sounds, cello staff, cello solo-A very clean pizz.
Muse sounds, cello staff, cello section-a slightly more muted pizz.
It sounds like the font is trying to emulate several cellos playing pizz not quite all together. It seems to me that a section would not sound like a solo player.
This what I hear on my system and on the video.
In reply to Some observations, if I may… by bobjp
Arco is bowed note, pizz is plucked they are very distinct sound. The bowed sound shouldn’t be present when the plucked sound is played. This only happens in the first “pizz note” so whether is because the previous note is still playing or the sound engine has changed the sound in time I’m not sure . In my screen recording video I think it’s quite clear that there is not a clean pizz sound , if the difference is not clear will make a demo of how it sounds on voice 2 and the difference is very obvious, then the pizz sound is distinctly a pizz sound without any trace of the bowed (Arco) sound
In reply to Arco is bowed note, pizz is… by malcolmmccaff
At .29 in you video, you play the two measures. Then a second time. I hear a slight difference in the pizz. But to me is sounds like the difference I explained above.
Yes I know what arco is. I just don't hear it in your score or video. And I'm listening through quality headphones.
I made a version of your score that has the two measures 3 times. First, original. Second with the pizz in voice 2 with the mf reassigned to voice two. Third original. I can't hear any difference.
So what are you hearing that sounds like arco? Describe it as best you can. What about the sound doesn't seem right?
In reply to At .29 in you video, you… by bobjp
Maybe this example makes it more clear, have exported an mp3. The first time the pizz has a blended arco sound, the 2nd time (using voice 2 workaround) its a pure pizz sound. Almost all my arrangements are for string ensemble, I write a huge amount, and I only ever came across this recently so not sure if this is a new issue.
In reply to Maybe this example makes it… by malcolmmccaff
Sorry, your score on my system sounds the same for both. In the mp3, the second sounds more muted. That's what I hear.
So I'll have to bow to those with different hearing than I have.
Good luck.
In reply to Sorry, your score on my… by bobjp
The second sounds more muted because it is a proper pizz sound without the arco sound blended in (i.e. the arco sound has more sustain). the musescore ensemble strings sounds are generally pretty decent for a notation software, but it does ruin the effect when the pizz articulation, which is very common in strings parts doesn't playback correctly for the first note in the phrase. There also is an issue where the dynamic sometimes doesn't change for first note in phrase for strings but I'll have to do more testing to see what scenarios trigger it. It's almost like the old sound is still loaded, and takes a short time to unload, although I don't know the details how playback in musescore works if that is even a feasible explanation. Pretty sure this is a new issue, but will have to see if I can workout which version this issue got introduced...
In reply to The second sounds more muted… by malcolmmccaff
OK. To my ear, the first pizz in the mp3 is brighter and snappy. Which can change depending on the playback volume. How could an arco sound do that. Especially since arco attack is not immediate and pizz is.
In reply to OK. To my ear, the first… by bobjp
I don't hear any difference between the two reps. In this new one or in your YouTube video. Sorry, *shrug*
In reply to I don't hear any difference… by TheHutch
The youtube video shows the pizz playback is wrong, and the zip here shows two examples the first pizz is played back wrong, the 2nd is fine. They sound completely different. As a strings player and somebody who composes primarily for orchestra or strings its pretty obvious to me they sound wrong, but I guess if people can't hear it I don't know how to explain it more clearly than that example (yet) Except maybe with a graphic analysis of the differences in the audio file.
In reply to The youtube video shows the… by malcolmmccaff
As a violinist and guitar player, I don't hear any noticeable difference. Sorry. To my ear, the pizz. and arco play correctly.
In reply to As a violinist and guitar… by TheHutch
I can see now what its doing through more experiments. It is taking the previous note which is "pp" and then when the next note is playing, the pizz note is "forte" , it is amplifying the previous note instead of cutting it off, so you hear the arco+pizz together. If i'm playing violin part, I wouldn't still have the arco sound going when I hit the pizz. The pizz playback is correct, but its not cutting off the previous sound, its made more obvious when these dynamics are in play, in seems to take the previous note fading out (the arco pp note) and amplifying it to forte as its fading out, so it can still be heard underneath the pizz note. This doesn't seem to occur if I change the instrument to solo violin sound. If I change the previous whole note to a shorter note it plays back fine.
If you play each instrument separately you'll see that the viola, cello, and bass all create the effect mentioned. It sounds like a quick sf downbow. I deleted and then reinstated the pizz signs but it did the same thing.
UPDATE: Forgot to mention, I put all the music back onto voice 1 at the last measure and deleted voice 2 for clarity.
Using OS: Windows 11 Version 2009 or later, Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore Studio version (64-bit): 4.5.2-251141402, revision: ac9d3bc
In reply to If you play each instrument… by FBXOPWKDOIR2
Yes, the viola and cello pizz sound different because they do in real life, too, A 2' string can't possibly sound like a 4" string being plucked MuseScore may or maynot do a very good job of it.
In reply to Yes, the viola and cello… by bobjp
they sound different, but they shouldn't have any trace of the arco sound blended in. pizz is a completely distinct sound. i play the entire strings family and quite familiar with how they sound both solo and in ensemble. i play cello in orchestra, and write for strings all the time. it seems the solo violin etc sounds are playing back correctly so maybe its an issue with the sounds themselves. i'll have to investigate further how the playback works in musescore to see where the potential issues are. the pizz sounds later in the phrases play back correctly, its only the first note so seems to be issue with how the sounds switch ....
A workaround for the time being may be putting in a breath mark in the third measure of all the instruments. The music pauses for a 1/2 second, allowing enough time for Musescore to figure out that there's a pizz in the next measure. The second pizzicato chord then sounds. This happens with only when you use Muse Sounds, so you might want to contact the Muse Sounds people about it.
Some thoughts.
Muse Sounds are far from perfect. If there is some leftover arco in this pizz sample, it wouldn't surprise me. There are plenty of times I've written sudden volume chances only to have playback do something odd. I have to modify things. And recorded sounds don't blend the same way real sound does. I've come across times where two instruments caused an odd overtone in playback. I had to change a few notes to get correct playback. Anyone expecting perfect playback from Muse sounds is in for problems.
I know many people write in notation software and spend a lot of time marking almost every note because they want things a certain way. Composers intent, it is called. So they get something sounding just so on their system. Great. But as soon as someone plays that music on a different system, I sounds different. I play something on one system. The trumpets are fine. Then I play it on another system and the trumpets are too loud in places. I didn't write it that way. And the mp3 sounds a little different than the score playback. And on, and on it goes. I'll stop there.