up-arrow does not create a double-sharp.
I've just downloaded yesterday's build, after having used the same nightly build for several months. So I suspect many things have been improved.
Is it my imagination or did the behavior of the up-arrow key change?
It used to be that after entering a note using the keyboard, pressing the up-arrow thereafter would sharpen the note.
This EVEN worked if I was in a key signature where the note was already sharp.
For example if my score is in the key of E (4 sharps) and I type d (to enter a D# note, the D is sharp when playing in the key of E), then press up-arrow,
I expect the note to change from D-sharp to D-double-sharp. But unfortunately what I see is the note E is entered.
I believe that previously this worked better. I.e. pressing the up-arrow on a D which was already sharpened by the key signature would change it to a double-sharp.
Perhaps there is a configuration preference for this?
Having to go to the menu to double click the double-sharp key is pretty annoying if I'm trying to enter a score mouse-free.
I'll be glad if someone can help or advise me.
Thanks.
Jim
Comments
If it ever worked like the way you describe (I don't remember having seen that, but take your work for it), I'd have called it a bug and am glad that it apparently got fixed.
If you want double sharps, use Notes → Transpose and leave the 'Use double # and double b' checked
It should be possible to add a shortcut for double # and/or double b
In reply to If it ever worked like the by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks for the quick response. As per your preferences w.r.t. the Transpose options. Yes, I already have "Use Double # and b" enabled.
The use model I've been applying is to use the keyboard for input rather than the mouse.
For example in the key of E (4 sharps) to enter the notes E, F#, G#, A, B, C#
I'd simply type e f g a b c. That is great (and still works correctly).
However if I wanted an A# in that sequence I'd type the following
e f g a UP b c. (that still works the same).
Similarly (as I recall, but I might be mistaken) If I wanted the sequence E F# G## A B C#
I would type e f g UP a b c,
And if I wanted E F# G# A B# C# (which is common in the key c#minor)
I'd type e f g a b UP c. (this still works the same).
So what seems like a consistent meaning of the single UP key when applied to a normal note in the scale, would be to sharpen the note, without trying to respell.
In the key of E, G# sharpens to G##, not to A. If I had wanted A, I would have typed a.
In reply to Thanks for the quick by jim.newton.562
While there is a certain logic in the idea that hitting up on G# should produce Gx, not A, that thinking only applies in some cases, not others. Sure, if you knew from the beginning you wanted a Gx, this would be a sensible way to want to enter it and a sensible expectation for how it would work. But the arrow keys are used for many other purposes as well - transpositions done for all sorts of reasons, changing your mind about what pitch you want, etc. And in most of those other cases, people would be surprised and disappointed by an algorithm that didn't favor diatonic spellings - which is why we changed the aspects we did change, in response to numerous complaints.
But again, double sharps were never used by Up to my knowledge, and I can't find a case where they are used in 1.3 after spending some effort trying to see if maybe some corner case might have accidentally allowed a double sharp to slip through. In both 1.3 and 2.0, the easy way to add double sharp if you wish to avoid the toolbar is to define a keyboard shortcut.
The algorithm for up arrow did indeed changed from 1.3 to 2.0, but it never allowed for double sharps, at least not in any cases I had tried.
The old algorithm simply spelled with sharps for up, flats for down, regardless of key. It never used double flats or sharps, nor would it ever create a Cb, Fb, B#, or E#. The new algorithm respects the key and favors diatonic spellings, so "G Up" in the key of Eb yields Ab rather than G#, but will create Cb in any key that does not have a B natural (eg, any flat key).
Since double sharps are not part of any key, they won't be created with Up in 2.0, but again, nor would they have been in 1.3.
Anyhow, keyboard shortcuts are customizable in MuseScore, so if you'd like a keybaord shortcut for double sharp, simply set it up in Edit / Preferences / Shortcuts - "Note input: double sharp".
In reply to The algorithm for up arrow by Marc Sabatella
I have 3 versions of musescore installed on my mac.
the stable 1.3 version
a 2.0 beta version 1efc609
and the nightly build from yesterday. 4f94df8
In my opinion the 2.0 beta version works correctly w.r.t the UP key.
In the key (signature E), if I press f UP, I get F ##, not G.
I would argue that that is the most intuitive behavior, at least when dealing with classical (and baroque music). I was pretty happy (and surprised) to see this behavior in 2.0 beta when I discovered it.
The behavior of the current nightly version as well as the 1.3 version is that f UP enters a G rather than an F##.
In reply to The algorithm for up arrow by Marc Sabatella
Could it be that the newest nightly build simply fails to recognize the "Use Double # and b" setting when reacting to the UP key? (probably also the DOWN, key but I haven't tested that one).
In reply to Could it be that the newest by jim.newton.562
There is no global "Use double # and b" setting I am aware of - just one specific to one particular invocation of a dialog box that is not involved in the handling of Up & Down. So, no, it wouldn't be possible (or correct) for any setting made in that dialog to affect Up/Down.
As per my other respnse, I think you'll find that while allowing Up/Down to enter double sharps and flats might seem like a good idea for note entry, it is a bad idea for virutally everything else the Up/Down keys are otherwise used for. Which is why simply defining a shortcut to enter the double sharps or flats directly is the way to go - that way there is no negative impact on the other usages of Up/Down.
In reply to There is no global "Use by Marc Sabatella
The argument that alot of people complained is indeed important.
I admit that something working correctly does not prevent people from complaining.
I find it odd that it seemed to work (what I'd call) correctly for a long time between the time
of 1.3 and 2.0, and now all of a sudden the feature is lost.
I'll look into creating a keyboard shortcut.
Thanks
Jim
In reply to The argument that alot of by jim.newton.562
I like shortcuts. Obviously, create shortcuts that you prefer but if it's of interest to anyone here is my setup. It is designed so that one hand can do one thing and the other activate the shortcut - right hand uses the arrows to move back and forwards through the score whilst left sorts out the beaming issues; left hand enters notes via the keyboard letters whilst right adds the accidentals, tenuto, staccato etc.
My experience with 2.0 is different from what is depicted subsequently in this thread, so I'm responding to the initial post.
I do, in fact, get double sharps (and double flats) by using UP (and DOWN). The behavior is very different from 1.3, but it is also circumstantial. It took a bit of playing around and testing to see what was governing the behavior I've observed; it's key signature-dependent, and I believe the algorithm can be described as follows:
In key signatures with no sharps or flats - or fewer than three sharps or flats - no double sharps or flats are produced.
Once a key signature has three sharps or three flats:
F-sharp is double-sharped; and
B-flat is double-flatted.
In a key signature of four sharps or four flats:
F-sharp and C-sharp are double-sharped; and
B-flat and E-flat are double-flatted.
In a key signature of five sharps or five flats:
F-sharp, C-sharp and G-sharp are double-sharped; and
B-flat, E-flat and A-flat are double-flatted.
In a key signature of six sharps or six flats:
F-sharp, C-sharp, G-sharp and D-sharp are double-sharped; and
B-flat, E-flat, A-flat and D-flat are double-flatted.
In a key signature of seven sharps or seven flats:
F-sharp, C-sharp, G-sharp, D-sharp and A-sharp are double-sharped; and
B-flat, E-flat, A-flat, D-flat and G-flat are double-flatted.
The foregoing can be verified by creating a simple one-staff score, inputting a one-octave diatonic scale, applying various key signatures, and checking the behavior of the UP and DOWN keys upon diatonic scales in the various key signatures.
A comparable algorithm determines when B-sharp and E-sharp (and C-flat and F-flat) are used in lieu of their enharmonic 'naturals', but (1) it would be off-topic for this particular thread, and (2) it can be observed using the same test I suggested for the double sharps and double flats.
In reply to My experience with 2.0 is by [DELETED] 448831
Yes, you are right. The rule is as I described earlier, but I neglected to consider that this rule will sometimes produce double sharps. The rule, again, is this: Up will add a sharp if that makes sense, but it will prefer a diatonic spelling. So double sharps will not be used *if the alternative is diatonic to the key*. Thus, in G major, "D Up Up" will produce an "E", because E is diatonic to the key of A. But in A major, "F Up" will not produce a G, because G is *not* diatonic to the key of A.
Same story with double flats, and for Cb/Fb/B#/E#. These notes are used *if the alternative is not diatonic*. Otherwise, the diatonic alternative is preferred, in keeping with a common request, and, I think, the more generally useful behavior in a wider variety of settings than just the one case of initial entry of the pitch (which can be done using the toolbar buttons or corresponding shortcuts).
And sorry for the confusion!
In reply to Yes, you are right. The rule by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc, yes I see in the key of E, If I type f UP, I do indeed get the F##. That's great.
As I understand, this is because G would not be in the E scale. However g UP, enters an A as that is indeed in the E scale. (I think that is what you mean by diatonic). I think I understand now.
In order for the UP to create a double sharp the key signature must have two adjacent sharps such as F# and G#. That's why one user reports that it only happens in a key signature which contains 4 sharps or more.
I think it makes sense. The implementation is a good one in my opinion. Now that I understand it, I like it.
Jim
In reply to Hi Marc, yes I see in the key by jim.newton.562
You understood me correctly :-). Whether the implementation itself is "correct" or not is of course subjective, but I do think it's a pretty good compromise.
In reply to Hi Marc, yes I see in the key by jim.newton.562
It first happens in a key signature with three sharps or flats, not four.
In reply to It first happens in a key by [DELETED] 448831
Yes 3 #'s. That's correct.