Ornaments baroque style and interval
It is very nice that we can choose now for trills starting with the upper note but...
- In my opinion the "Praller" should also have this option because it is the standard sign for a short trill
- It is very unpractical to have to change the style for each trill, it would be nice to have an option to change this for the whole score or section or as a style
- Musescore sometimes use the wrong interval (whole tone in stead of semitone), it would be nice to be able to change the interval or am I overseeing something?
But Musescore gets better and better!
Comments
I can't address some of this, but you *can* change style for all trills at once. Right click one, Select / All Similar Elements, then do what you like. Also, MuseScore tries to guess right about the interval based on the key and the accidentals in the measure, if you see a case where you think it should be doing better, feel free to attach the score.
Having more options and more global controls is being considered long term I believe.
In reply to I can't address some of this, by Marc Sabatella
"but you *can* change style for all trills at once. Right click one, Select / All Similar Elements"
That is a good one, thanks!
About the ornament called Praller: Baroque should also change to starting with the upper note, is that unclear?
When I find back the problem of the wrong interval for the trill I will post it, anyway would be nice to be able to change it because it is a choice with which note to start...
In reply to "but you *can* change style by SRH
I'm not sure which specific ornament you mean. I see on the Lines palette ones called "Upprall line" and "Downprall line", both of these provide Baroque as an option. Same with the various prall ornaments in the Articulations & Ornaments palette - "Prall prall", "Prall mordent", "Up prall", "Down prall", "Prall up", "Prall down", and "Line prall". Is it one of these you are saying should do something different than it does?
In reply to I'm not sure which specific by Marc Sabatella
I mean the short trill. Attached: trill.mscz the one in the first measure. Funny is that the names that are shown are still in Dutch which does not change when I change language and restart...
In reply to I mean the short trill. by SRH
So you're talking about "Prall" and "Prall prall", it seems. Both do have 'Default" and Baroque" available, at least here for me? Are you by change using a customized palette (and a user defined workspace)? That might explain why they don't change translation
In reply to So you're talking about by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes you are right: customized palet!
![trillexamples750.jpg]( "trillexamples750.jpg")
And indeed prall and prall prall (very strange names), prall is for all leading editors the normal trill, prall prall an extended trill (same as "tr") I can change the prall in baroque but it remains (on a c) c-d-c, it should become d-c-d-c.
On this page the (Baroque) ornaments are describes very well with their proper names: http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=1469
In reply to Yes you are right: customized by SRH
Did you create this custom palette before the playback feature became available? That would probably explain why the options are not available.
Different editors over different periods of times in different countries have used different names and meanings for similar symbols, so unfortunately there is no way to please everyone with the naming.
Still, I can confirm that the Baroque style for these ornaments does not play back as shown above, which is indeed the way I was taught for Baroque piano as well. It starts with the lower note.
In reply to Did you create this custom by Marc Sabatella
As far as I understand (now) those option are available, they just don't work the way they should.
FWIW, as I already said several times, I suspect this is a can of worms from which there is no real exit.
For instance, the case d) in the above scan, particularly in cadential passages, may easily indicate something (very roughly) of this kind (perhaps more often than the other options indicated):
NOT FOUND: 1
Cases b) and c) for sure admit a 4-note realisation (D-C-D-C, assuming the ornamented note is a C) in a variety of rhythms, but also a 3-note realisation (C-D-C), depending on the context and the tempo (in a quick B C D sequence with C ornamented, C-D-C is potentially preferable).
Or, the '+' sign, which may mean almost anything, again depending on the context and the tempo.
And so on indefinitely (without entering in the questions about French music versus Italian music versus German music...).
So, there is no 'right' solution; in several cases there is not even a 'more common' solution. And any pre-baked realisation is going to be 'wrong' as often as not.
The only way out is to allow the user to either edit the pre-baked realisation or to create his own patterns. But, unfortunately, neither solution is easy to implement nor it would be easy to use once implemented.
In reply to FWIW, as I already said by Miwarre
Agree but all tables of ornaments in the Baroque indicate that a trill (or whatever name you give it: shake, tremblement, trillo) starts on the upper note unless it is tied to the note before. Exceptions are Italian (German) music, specially before circa Corelli (c. 1680) or in early Baroque style. Starting on the upper note in general is more correct/safe.
Musescore is about notation of course but when play back is working it is better not to hear the ornament than listening to the wrong ornament in my opinion.
In reply to Agree but all tables of by SRH
"[...] it is better not to hear the ornament than listening to the wrong ornament in my opinion."
In my opinion too, but apparently this is a minority opinion...
(And, "right" and "wrong" will always be a matter of debate in this topic. And so far, we only discussed about notes, but rhythm is also quite important: for instance, in current MuseScore implementation of trills, I consistently miss the initial appoggiatura, which is an important element of the trill in the majority of cases, as I tried to show in my example above).
In reply to "[...] it is better not to by Miwarre
And that is why they have a 'play' property ;-)
>It is very unpractical to have to change the style for each trill, it would be nice to
>have an option to change this for the whole score or section or as a style
Yes, I'd like this as well. I envisioned a way to set a default so that when you enter a new ornament, the ornament-style was initially set to your favorite default. This default should probably be stored on the score somewhere. I didn't really know the best way to do this at the beginning of the project. Nevertheless, it would be a good idea in my opinion. Even I forget sometimes to change the style from Default to Baroque.
> Musescore sometimes use the wrong interval (whole tone in stead of semitone),
> it would be nice to be able to change the interval or am I overseeing something?
I'd like to see an example of this. The playback routine uses the scale implied by the key signature, but obeys accidentals it finds earlier in the measure.
Again, if you have an example of this, please let me know. I'd like to look at it more closely.
Hi SRH, By Praller, do you man the Prall?
This is the one in the 1st measure of trill.mscz which you attached.
This one indeed starts on the written note. This is because in my opinion it is really an inverted mordent. At least that is the way I interpreted it when I implemented it.
The Mordent "bites" down to the note below, and the inverted mordent "bites" up the the next higher note.
Unfortunately the text/prompt in musescore does not use the word "Inverted Mordent".
In reply to Hi SRH, By Praller, do you by jim.newton.562
See the text he links to. The question of "inverted mordent" is a matter of religious debate in some circles :-). To my understanding, that interpretation of the symbol is specifically *not* the Baroque one, but you will see respected sources differ on this.
In reply to See the text he links to. by Marc Sabatella
Exactly: the "inverted mordent" does not exists in the baroque. All composers that published tables of ornaments start the trill (wether short or long sign or tr) on the upp[er note! Only when a trill is tied to the note before the upper note is not repeated. (D'Anglebert, Couperin, Purcell, Rameau, Bach etc.) In earlier music all the trills start on the main note: Monteverdi, Frescobaldi, Virginalists (most), in there course of the 17th century this changes, so indeed a complicated subject which has partially to do with taste.
But the main thing (my wish) is that the short trill ("pral") should have the two possibilities: default: 3 notes, baroque: 4 notes starting with the upper of course. In this way everybody has choice.
In reply to Exactly: the "inverted by SRH
Hmm, if that's the case, i.e., if the inverted mordent does not exist in baroque, then for me it makes sense to play it as a short trill. Unless there is an objection, I'll make that change. Is it possible to have a bug report for this one?
In reply to Hmm, if that's the case, by jim.newton.562
The + is now a long mordent, in 95% percent the + is a trill staring on the upper note...
In reply to The + is now a long mordent, by SRH
If I'm not mistaken the Baroque + is a trill down from the note written.
and the Default + is nothing.
In reply to If I'm not mistaken the by jim.newton.562
Baroque is a long mordent indeed, should be a trill (4 or 6 noes starting on the upper), default could be a mordent (3 or 5 notes)
In reply to Hmm, if that's the case, by jim.newton.562
super if you change the short trill as you propose!
In reply to Exactly: the "inverted by SRH
Please see the issue https://musescore.org/en/node/71721
to follow this tweak.