New (additional) StartUp Page
For newbies, the "Start Center>Getting Started" page is WONDERFUL. I'd like to suggest an additional sub-page of "Start Center" whose purpose is to explain by graphic illustration (ie, same as Getting Started)
the hierarchies of containers for notes.
I have had a VERY hard time trying to use and understanding how the following fit together/relate:
systems, lines, staffs(staves, whatever), voices, instruments.
I am willing to work on this if some expert will correct my meaning & understanding, AND, it will get used and published into Start Center.
Initial terms & hierarchy:
notes - tones or pitches of sound/music
measure - a container for notes, it allows all sorts of decoration & complication proprieties
line - a set of adjacent measures traversing, left to right, across a physical or display page/view
system - synonym for line
(or switch system & line, as a newbie I think in lines)
stave(staff) - a container for lines/systems, many decoration properties are allowed
score - a container for staves(staffs), again many decoration and visual properties are allowed.
What say the BIG GROUP out there?
Comments
System is the usual musical term for it. "Line" is problematic in that it is ambiguous - depending on context, it might refer to a single staff, a single staff line (eg, a staff has 5 *lines*), or a single voice on that staff (eg, the soprano line in an SATB arrangement), or a whole system.
Missing from this picture is "instrument", which is similar to "staff" in most cases but some instruments consist of multiple staves (eg, piano).
Also missing from this picture is "chord", which also causes some confusion as MuseScore (like other notation programs) considers each note to belong to a chord even if it is a "one note chord". This is so we can talk about certin properties applying to individual notes and other applying to an entire chord.
Anyhow, yes, a picture like this defintely would be nice to have in the Handbook. Not sure it really needs to be as visible as the "Getting Started" score though - these distinction are either well-understood basic musical terms, or else the distinctions are pretty esoteric and only relevant to a small percentage of users trying to do advanced things that will pretty much require reading the Handbook anyhow. Not that I'm against the idea, but at some point we have to decide what is worth exposing in that way, and I'm not sure this type of stuff really is the next most important thing to add.
Given the success of the Getting Started score, we very much welcome new worksheets which can be exposed through the Start Center as well.
sorry, but I disagree (even as a newbie) about your use of "lines", they are probably to me the most important (for communication purposes).
All of my focus is on how a piece of music paper gets discussed and then played in classes I take.
She will say "in meas 2 of line 7 note the blah..blah..blah", then she will demonstrate it, and the class will attempt it. I am referring to guitar classes. I know this is also true of my daughter's voice group.
And in this context, a line is a group of horizontal measures, on one staff (once across the page). The line may have 2 horizontal chunks (staffs) grouped with a bracket. BUT THE COUNT IS ONE LINE.
We play it discuss it, and go on the other LINES. I claim this is the way the great majority of music instruction is carried out and discussed.
Nowhere does concept of a system EVER even nudge through the door.
(I still do not really know what a system means to MuseScore.)
It is this vocabulary inconsistency I am wrestling with and thought/do believe that a decent "startup graphic" would help fix/correct.
Or do you want MuseScore to be only for professionals and/or music majors?
In reply to sorry, but I disagree (even by dpenny
My point is, there *is* no separate concept of a line in MuseScore, or in any other music notation program, or in music period. There are staves - that is a common term used in MuseScore and in the world at large, and there are systems - that is *also* a common term in MuseScore and the world at large. "System" is not a term made up for MuseScore; it is the one oand only term used worldwide to describe a set of staves. It might not come up in a class where the music always has only one staff, but it is a necessary term in music of multiple staves. And most importantly, there is no separate concept of a "line". What you are thinking of as a line is just a term that could either mean "system" or "staff" depending on the context. It so happens that in the context you are most familiar with - music written for a single instrument and hence with only one staff - the term "line" would always mean "system", because there is only one staff. But for people dealing with music of several staves, the term "line" *is* ambiguous - people would have no way of knowing if you meant *staff& or *system*, because both represent one "line" of music in some sense.
For example, in music for a concert band, there might be 20 staves. If you refer to the "third line", people simply will have no way of knowing if you mean the third *staff* or the third *system*. That is why it is important to be able to use unambiguous terms.
In reply to My point is, there *is* no by Marc Sabatella
I totally agree with
"...That is why it is important to be able to use unambiguous terms...."
I will ask a few of music professionals I know about the term "system". One has graduate degree in music, other two have earned living at music for ~30 years each.
And "...unambiguous terms...." is precisely why I think new pages in the "getting started" documentation are needed.
In reply to I totally agree with "...That by dpenny
FWIW, context is important. As I mentioned, in a world one is mostly dealing with music for a single isntrument, so there is one or at most staves per system but several systems per page, it will be natural to think of "line" as being synonymous with "system", and the latter term indeed seems unnecessarily technical.
But as soon as you consider music for a larger ensemble, with say 12 staves on a system and only one system per page, the concept of a "line" ceases to be obviously connected with system at all. The first page looks to have 12 lines of music, even though it is only system. The third system of music is actually on the third page, yet if you asked someone to point to the third line, they would most likely point to the third staff on the first page. And it's this sort of situation where the word "line" *is* ambiguous. So be sure when asking you friends about these terms that they consider the different types of situations MuseScore has to deal with, not just music for a single instrument.
I think you'll find use the word "system" is virtually universal in every notation program in the world, for exactly this reason. Not that we can't sometimes use the word "line" as well when the context is clear, but there really are reasons why it is best to use the correct term "system".
Thanks for you cogent reply. It makes more sense to me that some earlier ones, but then, I've been on this "soap box" for a while now.
So, how much interest is there for an additional "start center" page focused on these concepts and terms that I call "containers?"
In reply to Thanks for you cogent reply. by dpenny
I'm definitely in favor of a more "cheat sheet" types of pages, whether exposed in the Start Center, Handbook, or elsewhere. And this could indeed be one of them.
In reply to I'm definitely in favor of a by Marc Sabatella
Perhaps an integration of the glossary with pictures might be useful to those who approach the music through MuseScore, something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols
(It's an old idea)
In reply to Perhaps an integration of the by Shoichi
Maybe just the text glossary could be included with the download: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/glossary-0
Glad that this is being discussed. I get confused every time I want to format a score.
What would help tremendously is a picture: Showing this is a staff, this is a system. This is the distance from the A-line of the bass clef to the E-line of the treble clef, it's controlled by .... ? This is the distance from the G-line of the bass clef to the F-line of the following treble clef.
Frankly, every time I try to adjust a layout, it's a hit-or-miss try this, try that, and the documentation doesn't seem to tell me what I want to know.
My complaint is even confusing, here's something like I'd like to see:
----^------------- ^----
----|--------------|----
----|--------------|----
----|--------------|----
----v----- ^-------|----
| |
| |
| |
----^-----v -------|---
----|--------------|---
----|--------------|---
----|--------------|---
--- v--------------v--- Which is the system spacing?
I believe this would greatly help to explain some of the notation terminology to those of us that are not familiar with it.
Sorry, this didn't work out like I had planned either. Then the page timed out! I'll just apologize rather than continue to fuss with it. I'll bet you'll get my point.
In reply to Glad that this is being by tonyb
Your picture does not contain enough information for us to say what the system spacing is - that's because we don't know how many staves are on the system.
It's not actually that complicated. If your score is for, say, 3 instruments (I'll call them A, B, and C), then your staves are laid out like this:
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
This shows four systems, each system has three staves. Staff distance is the distance between staves within a system - eg, between A & B or between B & C. System distance is the distance between systems. For system distance, MuseScore gives you the ability to set a minimum and maximum distance so that the distance can vary from page to page as necessary - some pages might be more full than others.
In reply to Your picture does not contain by Marc Sabatella
… and, if you have only one instrument, like this:
AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA
then this example shows four systems, with the distance between them controlled by the system-related settings.
In reply to … and, if you have only one by Isaac Weiss
how would one create something like:
AAAAAAAAA
BBBB
AAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBBBBB
[this page is not taking my typing correctly, the 4 B's are on the right end of (ugh) sys 1]
In reply to how would one create by dpenny
I'm not really understanding. The A and B in my example represented totally different instruments - flute and cello, for example. So they'd never be combined on one staff. And you'd never repeat the same cello part twice on the same system, either. You might have two different cello parts, but that's a new instrument.
Anyhow, while i don't understand the exact intent of your example, I can say that "Hide empty staves" is probably what you are looking for. If your full system contains both flute and cello staves but for some systems the cello staff is empty, you'll have just a flute staff on that particular system. Another system might have the flute staff empty, so there you'll have just a cello staff.
In reply to I'm not really understanding. by Marc Sabatella
The A's in my example represent std treble clef staff notation, while the B's represent 6-string TAB notation of acoustic guitar. TAB is often shown/displayed ONLY for ending 1-2 measures of a verse or chorus for so-called "fills" or "tags" where fingering details need to be specified.
At the score end, often, only TAB is given for instrumental breaks, or advanced fingering for some students, and for some, not necessarily all measures.
I hope this context helps understand my Q's.
In reply to The A's in my example by dpenny
OK, so ther two lines of B's at the end were actually meant to be two separate systems of one staff, not one system containing the same staff twice.
In which case, indeed, "Hide empty staves" is exactly what you want. If you need the first system to switch from the standard staff to the tab staff, then add a horizontal frame between them, which will allow "Hide empty staves" to operate on both sub-systems independently.
So, create the score for with both staves, enter the music as approipriate, then when done, turn on this option, and everything will be exactly as you want.
In reply to Your picture does not contain by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for your prompt response. Now I think I have a good idea of what a "system" is. A staff is what I always considered a staff - 5 horizontal lines with a clef indication at the beginning. And so a System is some number of staffs (or is it staves?) connected at the very beginning with a vertical line. So what I always thought was a "Grand Staff", a treble staff combined with a bass staff, typical for piano music, is actually a system?
I'm usually trying to increase the distance between two staves within a system when writing music for Barbershop quartets where two voices are written on the top staff and two on the bottom. Often more space is needed between the two staves of a system to allow room for lyrics, particularly when the different voices are singing different lyrics.
In reply to Thanks for your prompt by tonyb
A grand staff is a system consisting of two staves. MuseScore actually gives you separate control for the distance between staves representing different instruments - eg, the staves representing flute and cello - versus the distance between the staves of a single instrument ("Grand staff distance").
Lyrics should add more space automatically, so you wouldn't *normally* need to add it yourself. Unless you are placing lyrics for the bottom staff above that staff, which would indeed happen is the voices are sufficiently different. But if it's just for a few systems here and there, instead of messing with the style settings, it's better to use spacers from the Breaks & Spacers palette.
In reply to A grand staff is a system by Marc Sabatella
A grand staff is a system consisting of two staves.
Only for piano solo piece... For a flute + piano piece, the system(s) contains 3 staves (the flute staff and the two staves of the grand staff)
Also note that the MuseScore UI calls System the group of staves you can have several times on a page (This page has 4 systems, System break) but all these systems for a given score are called a system too (like in System text vs Staff text or Dynamics velocity staff vs system).
Idem for staves... the "first system of the page is made of 4 staves" but "Staff properties" will apply on the entire staff across all the systems of the score.
So depending on the context a system and a staff are not defined exactly the same and that will be hard to show on a drawing...
(don't get me started on parts :)
In reply to A grand staff is a system by Marc Sabatella
This discussion has certainly been helpful to me - at least, I now have a confident understanding of what a system is and the relation of staff to system. And I am thankful. Using myself as a barometer, I'd bet many other users are not familiar with the term "system".
Your little AAAA/BBBB/CCCC diagram of Feb 8 made it instantly clear. And the following talk gelled it.
My original point though, still remains valid. A sketch would be helpful to explain a certain amount of this. According to the old saying, a picture could conceivable replace 1,000 words. And plowing through paragraphs of words is (to me) much more tedious than glancing at a diagram.
Glance back up at the diagram I failed to construct properly in my original message. The two columns of vertical lines "|" were supposed to be tabbed over to align with v & ^ and the rightmost vertical lines with the staves. Granted it was insufficient to answer my question, "What is the system spacing?" But that doesn't invalidate my point that pictures can often make certain concepts much simpler to understand than verbiage.
The point was made that some things would be difficult to show on a diagram. OK, so words, too, are needed. That's a given. But if there is a feature one wants to change but doesn't know what it is called, looking it up in an index or table of contents doesn't help. Glancing at a picture may very well explain what it is called.
As for the spacing between staves of a system, I want to control it all the time in Barbershop scores as the lyrics for the bass clef are frequently written above the bass clef and collide with those of the treble clef. I say, "all the time," but actually it's more like "every time," those times being 6 months in between. Thus the "how did I do that?" has nagged me repeatedly.
BTW, changing "Grand Staff Distance" doesn't do the trick for me, nothing happens. Maybe it's not a true grand staff as I use an octave treble clef. But I rediscovered that "Extra distance above staff" in the "Properties" of the bass clef staff does the trick. Now I need to remember that!
I greatly appreciate the opportunity to have had this discussion.
In reply to This discussion has certainly by tonyb
"Grand staff distasnce" only affects the distance of a true grand staff - two (or more) staves *within a single instrument*. That basically just piano and organ. For the staves of two *different* instruments, it is "Staff distance".
If you contiue to have trouble, feel free to post the score you are having trouble with and explain further. You shouldn't need to touch the setting you used.
In reply to "Grand staff distasnce" only by Marc Sabatella
Yes. That dawned on me a couple hours later while I was walking the dogs. I'm not actually using a grand staff - just two separate staffs that look that way. Thanks again.
In reply to Your picture does not contain by Marc Sabatella
I am not sure if I understand the staff concept. In Marc's example below, the "page" contains four systems. That is obvious. And there are three instruments, A, B and C. But does it show three or 12 staves? My understanding was that there are tree staves on the page, where each staff is included/visible in all of the systems. So it is not a strict "containment hierarchy", in the sense that a system "contains" the staves. A system is really only referring to, or displaying a set of staves. And each system shows a different part of the staffs. So systems show different parts of the same set of staves. Do I understand this correctly?
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA
BBBBBBBBBB
CCCCCCCCCC
In reply to I am not sure if I understand by AndreasKågedal
I think you are understanding correctly.
Depending on the specific context, it is true that colloquially, one might say there were three staves (meaning, per per system) or twelve (meaning, in total). As far as MuseScore uses the term, though, it would always refer to the first. If MuseScore says something applies to a staff, it means, that same staff across all systems. Eg, the Staff Properties dialog affects the staff across all systems, and Select / All Similar Elements in Same Staff applies to the staff across all systems as well. But colloquially, it's possible someone might count the other way.
In reply to I am not sure if I understand by AndreasKågedal
as a "newbie", and not having read any other response(s) on purpose, I would venture to say:
1. there is no concept of a page
2, it is one score
3. the score contains one system
4. the system contains 3 staves (note, am not using staffs now)
5a. there is no way to tell above what each staff represents, it is really whatever the author chose to put there
5b. in my context of folk, country, & guitar scores, A=simple melody staff in treb clef,
B=simple version of TAB for guitar
C= advanced version of TAB for guitar
I'd appreciate confirmation of my 1-4 above.
In reply to as a "newbie", and not having by dpenny
1. Of course, pages *do* exist, so it's not quite that there "is no concept of a page". But it *is* true that MuseScore currently provides no page-specific settings. There is the Page Settings dialog under the Layout menu, but it affects all pages equally. So no way to have page 1 have one bottom margin but page 2 a different one, etc. Other than the otpion to have different left/right margins I guess.
2. Not sure what you mean by "it" here, but sure, a score is a score. But a score with multiple instruments can have *parts* - individual subscores displayed on separate tabs, with each part having just the staff or staves relevant to that instrument.
3. Which score? Scores generally have many of systems unelss they are very short. The one being discussed here has 4 systems. So I'm not sure what you mean here. Maybe you are thining of a "system" as some sort of abstract concept, "the set of all staves", but that's not right. It's physically a group of staves in one set of parallel horizontal lines across the page. So we can and do talk about the first system versus the second system and certain things apply to one system but not another (eg, spacers).
4. If we are talking about the example at hand, then yes, each for the four systems contains 3 staves.
5. I don't understand what you are saying/asking here. It should always be plainly obvious what a staff represents; if not, then the piece hasn't been notated correctly. The multiple staves of a single system are connected by an initial barline that runs through all the staves of that system. So if you see two staves that are connected in this way, that is one system of two staves. If they are not connected in that way, that is two systems of one staff each. it's that simle. Somehow you are maknjg this *much* more complicated in your mind than it actually is.