CHORD CHARTS
It would be very handy for jazzers, and others, too, I guess, if MuseScore had a function to make chord charts.
It should also incorporate the ability to change the key easily.
And be able to be made having separate blocks - for verses, interludes, etc.
Any chance of someone adding this function????????
I can't believe I'm the first to suggest this, so why is the function not already in MuseScore?
Or am I dumb and just haven't found it?
Hope springs eternal - or so it's said.
Alan Rogers
Comments
You can already create a wide variety of types of chord charts in MuseScore. You don't say what specifically you are havig trouble with, but some of the features to look up in the Handbook include:
Chord symbols
Tools (Fill with slashes, Toggle rhythmic slash notation)
Staff properties
Text frames
Rehearsal marks
If after reading the documentation for these features you have questions about how to achieve some particular effect, feel free to ask here with more specifics - like a picture of what you are trying to achieve, and a sample score showing your best attempt to achieve it.
Hi Marc, thanks for the answer, but couldn't fathom out how to get what I wanted.
I attach an example of the sort of thing I mean: it needn't be as complicated as this, but it would be nice were it possible.
Just the grids (with the chords able to change keys when necessary) and the headings would be enough for simple stuff.
Thanks again,
Alan.
In reply to Hi Marc, thanks for the by alanrogers
Well, if you truly don't want clefs or staff lines or anything else resembling music, it isn't clear why you'd use MuseScore for this. I was thinking you meant something more like a lead sheet, perahsp using slash notation. But anyhow, it *is* possible to do more or less what you have in mind using MuseScore, and the Handbook articles I pointed you too should cover all the necessary concepts. For example, to get rid of staff lines, clefs, etc, use staff properties. To enter text between sections, use a text frame, etc.
So again, I'd suggest reading those articles, giving it a go, and then if you have more specific questions on particular things you are having trouble with, it will be easier to offer help.
You might aslo see this other current thread where someone is discussing how he goes about doing something kind of similar: https://musescore.org/en/node/97876
Hi again Marc,
Ok, so MuseScore, as its name suggests, is primarily for scoring music.
However, as very, very many (especially jazz) musicians use chord charts due to their being very helpful, I had the feeling that MuseScore could add a very appropriate lump of usefulness for a large number of musos were it to have/include a dedicated sub-program having the ability to make key-changeable chord charts easily.
After all, I'd hazard a guess that constructing a sub-program for that purpose would be relative child's play compared to the construction of the main and excellent ability of the program to make score-sheets.
Anyway, thanks again for your help and patience.
Best wishes,
Alan Rogers.
In reply to Hi again Marc, Ok, so by alanrogers
FWIW, I've been a jazz musician and I've never seen anyone use anything like your example - it's more in the pop world I've seen that type of thing. What most jazz musicians I know call "chord charts" are something very different.
But anyhow, as I said, MuseScore *can* be used to do pretty much everything shown in your example - you just need to read the appropriate Handbook sections to see how to use each of the features I mentioned. Again, give it a shot, and then if you have more specific questions about some particular aspect of the process, people will be happy to answer.
Hi again Marc,
If you've never seen anything like my example, you can't have seen, for instance, 'A Jazz chord book' ISBN no. 0 9510808 0 6 compiled by Lionel Grigson and 'Anthologie des grilles de jazz' see https://bfrjszp.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/anthologie-des-grilles-de-j… - not exactly rare and weird collections. Both of these, and quite a few others I've seen, have the chord charts set up more-or-less exactly like the example that I sent you.
Best regards,
Alan.
In reply to Hi again Marc, If you've by alanrogers
You're right - I haven't seen that particular book. Could be a regional thing, I guess. In the places I've lived and played professional (several different states in the US) people tend to use totally different types of charts. The most popular publications by far being the "Real Book" and "New Real Book" series. Most hanrdwritten charts where I've lived tend to follow a similar "lead sheet" format, or they skip the melody and use slash notation.
If you can provide more pointers to publications using the type of format you are accustomed to, we could certainly consider what might be involved in providing even easier methods of creating such scores.
As you say, the Realbook and others use a what-one-might-call 'unboxed' layout, mostly, I guess, because they're US books and because if someone is doing it by hand (as it were), it's quicker and easier. In Europe and, as far as I can tell, most of the rest of the world what you might call 'published' chord charts are as in the examples I pointed out to you. Sorry I can't give you other examples at the minute, as I haven't got any other published collections myself, but I know there are (many) others.
I have a feeling that a part of the reason why things are as they are may also be a bit like why the US is still using Imperial units, while the rest of the world (even GB - though they still use 'pints' in pubs, probably because it sounds nicer to say to one's mates, 'Let's go down the pub for a pint or seven', whereas 'a half a litre or three and a half' doesn't flow so well) converted to the more logical and connected-to-reality Metric system 50+ years ago.
The same, or at least a similar, reaction occurred when a while ago I suggested that MuseScore should start using and promoting a logical-and-more-well-thought-out chord symbol system, and in so-doing try to bring a bit of common sense and reason to the musical community - rather than continuing to use the totally arbitrary herd of systems (and sometimes ones that contain really weird symbols, or ones that take up an enormously unnecessary amount of space) currently being used.
As I said earlier, 'Hope springs eternal', but I'm pretty sure I won't live to see it happen.
I'm old (very old), but I still am willing to accept that there's things that can be changed for the better. I guess you could say that illustrates the difference between (for example) musicians who think that the second chord in the chorus of 'After you've gone {in Bb}' is Ebm (as I did 50+ years ago) instead of Ab11.
In my experience, all the well known 'busker' books from around the world, as well as 'Grigson' give chord charts as chords within barlines. However, they can be produced with MuseScore.
If you look a little further down, you will see my thread on how to do it, but here is a resume.
Select Measure
Right-click: Stave Properties
Only tick 'Show Bar Lines' and 'Invisible stave lines' Untick 'Show Key Signature' in Advanced. Set Line Distance to 1.75.
Select Rest
Right-click: Select/All Similar Elements. In the Inspector, untick 'Visible'.
If the line breaks are wrong,
Edit/Tools Add/Remove Line Breaks, Remove current line breaks
Edit/Tools Add/Remove Line Breaks, Break lines every 4 bars
Styles/General, Barlines
Tick 'Barlines at start of single stave'. Increase Barline thickness ot '0.7'.
Layout/Page Settings
All Page Margins set to 10.00mm. Adjust Page Scaling to fill one page.
Select Title Frame
In the Inspector, reduce Height to suite.
Style/Text, Chord Symbol
Size 28. Offset Horizontal 1.00sp. Offset Vertical 8.00sp
The sizes of the bars will be variable where there are long chord symbols or multiple symbols. Select the 'long' bars, right-click and choose 'Bar Properties'. Reduce 'Layout stretch' until the line of four bars is reasonably spaced. If you drag the requester away from the chart, you can move from bar to bar with the left and right arrows, applying the changes as you go and fine tuning the result.
The chord symbols may be dragged until they are well positioned in the measure.
The settings I propose are only suggestions. You may prefer different font sizes and other settings.
The attached files do a lot of pre-formatting for you.
Using Song Files from Another Program
I do my chord checking in Band In A Box. It is important to remove any notes in the stave and to have the single rest per measure. I open the BIAB file in MuseScore and then convert it to a chord chart. I load the Style 'Chord Chart.mss' (having placed it in the 'Styles' folder) and then change the 'Stave Properties' as indicated, above. That makes the stave lines invisible and removes key and time signatures, etc. It also increases the barline height.
I make the rests invisible and change to four measures per line, as above. Then I select the first chord symbol and right-click/Select - All Similar Elements. In the Inspector, Reset Text To Style. It is then a matter of tidying up the measures and the chord symbol placement. Perfection takes a while, but there is not much point: the quick and dirty results are perfectly readable.
Manual Chord Entry
If manually entering the chords in MuseScore, create a new project and choose the template 'Chord Chart.mscz'. I put it in Templates/09-User. Unfortunately, the four-measures-to-the-line has to be set as it is not loaded with the template. There is still work to be done, as described above, but it is not arduous.
Request for Feature
There is a convention in these types of chord chart that a chord change on every beat is indicated by a slash. The second bar in the attached file 'My Happiness.mscz' has two beats of F followed by a beat of F and a beat of Fm. The convention displays this as | F F/Fm |. A change on every beat would be shown as
| F/Fm F/Fm |: in other words, only pairs of chords are treated this way. This convention makes playing intuitive. At the moment, MuseScore shows the measure as | F F Fm |, which is ambiguous and not readily played. There are a couple of work-arounds. In the example file 'My Happiness', the slash is achieved by using Stave Text character '/'. set to 28pt and dragged between the two chord symbols.
The convention cannot be followed by simple chord entry. Entering f/fm as a chord gives F/fm: the slash and fm are not interpreted. However, there is this second work-around. Entering f/ gives F/ and this can be followed up with the next chord Fm with the two being dragged together to give F/Fm.
The feature request is to accept the '/' character as a chord separator with the two chords being displayed either side of the '/' (see the file 'My Happiness.mscz' for the desired format).
In reply to In my experience, all the by royleith
MuseScore already supports slash notation - see the Fill With Slashes and the Toggle Rhythmic Slash Notation commands under Edit / Tools. You can also enter notes normally and change them into slashes via the Inspector. And you can also enter a slash alone as a chord symbol. So as far as I can see, there are already many ways to create a wide variety of things along the lines of what your example shows.
In reply to MuseScore already supports by Marc Sabatella
I had a play with your suggestions. The various 'slash' commands all work as you say, but are based on notes rather than chords. For some reason, MuseScore does not allow notes to be dragged, at will, to any point in the bar. I expect it is one of those silly musician things! In short, they cannot be used to create charts like the one posted, above.
Slashes as a chord symbol are a different matter. The '/' chord symbol can be dragged anywhere. However, those musicians strike again! Only four chord symbols to the bar are allowed. This does not allow for | F/Fm F/Fm | which requires six chord symbols.
I fixed that by creating a custom 8/8 time signature in View/Master Palette/Time Signatures. With eight chord symbols to the bar, the example, above, is fairly easily achieved. Because MuseScore does not play chord symbols (as opposed to notes) there is no problem.
However, I hope one day MuseScore will play chord sequences so that I don't have to fire up Band In A Box to create and audition new ones. This would help those who would like to audition a melody line with the backing chords. (This is not a request for a feature as I can work well enough with both programs). Forcing the 8/8 time signature will become a problem if that feature is added.
So, the best route that I can see is to add a '/' text feature like Stave Text, set the same font as chord symbols and drag that to the required position.
It would be nice if MuseScore interpreted the chord symbol input 'bb/bbm' as 'Bb/Bbmin', (in other words, the two properly formed chord symbols separated by a slash).
BTW, Your excellent book mentions Style/General/Measure which does not appear in the Linux version. It's not relevant to this discussion.
In reply to I had a play with your by royleith
You can have as many chord symbols per bar as you like. The space bar moves by beat, so you'll get four if you only use the space bar, but you can use Ctrl plus a duration shortcut to move by any amount - so Ctrl+4 to move by eighth note. So no need to create custom time signatures. The "/" as a chord symbol should work perfectly.
Slashes as notes can be used as well, and they most definitely *can* be repositioned (that's what the Inspector is for, or double click to enter Edit mode then use the arrow keys just as for most other symbols). But since you aren't using them as notes here, that isn't the right approach - the layout will be too "fragile" and won't survive changes well.
Style / General / Measure is in the Linux version of MuseScore just as it is in Windows and Mac. It's the fifth item down on the list.
In reply to I had a play with your by royleith
As for Bb/Bbmin, the proper interpretation of that would be be a polychord - a Bb triad on top of a Bb minor triad. MuseScore currently doesn't supprot that well; you'd have to enter it manually. But it's presumably not what you want here anyhow. You want a Bb on beat 1, a "/" on the "and" of 1 (I assume) and a Bbmin on beat 2. So simply enter that directly: type "B b Ctrl+6 / Ctrl+6 B b m i n" (no spaces; I added those just for clarity).
In reply to As for Bb/Bbmin, the proper by Marc Sabatella
If my rhythm section starts playing polychords, I'm getting a banjo player! The entry system you give works very well. Thanks.
I'm using MuseScore Version 2.0.2, Rev. 3543170.
My version of Style / General gives,
With reference to your 'frames' post, I notice that my palette for frames is called Frames and Bars, rather than Frames and Measures as in the book.
I don't care a jot: I can still make your suggestions work. Perhaps MuseScore has moved on a little since the book was published.
Hi Roy,
Thanks for your exhaustive and welcome reply to my comments.
I'll have a go at your suggestions shortly, as I've done the ones I immediately needed using Word (I didn't have to worry about needing possible key-changes for these few).
I've tried using the 'Band in a box' program for making chord charts before, but that was also such a hassle, I gave up.
I'm still of the opinion that, in my experience up to now, there isn't a program that can be used to make chord charts as easily as you can using, for instance, Word. The disadvantage with Word, of course, is that as I said above, it doesn't have the ability to change keys easily.
Would it be such a huge amount of effort and time to write a sub-program of MuseScore that could be used to do the job as easily as it can be done in Word?
Anyway, many thanks again,
In reply to Hi Roy, Thanks for your by alanrogers
MuseScore can *already* do these quite easily. You haven't made clear which step of the instructions you are having difficulty with. Please post a specific score you are having trouble with and explain what exactly you are struggling to accomplish, and we can give you more precise step-by-step instructions.
The problem with asdding a new feature to make some aspect of this more easy is that everyone has different ideas of what a chord chart should look like. Yours looks far different from the oens shown above, and both look far different from the ones I am accustomed to seeing. Probably every region of the world and every genre of music people have their own idosyncratic ways of creating these - there is no standardization. So the best we can do is give you a set of tools you can use to create the look you want. And as far as I can tell, we already do that. So agaim, if there is some *particular* aspect you are habving trouble with, pleas,e attach your best attempt and tell us what specific thing you cannot figure out how to achieve.
In reply to Hi Roy, Thanks for your by alanrogers
I had a look at your example and now realise that it is the other well-known format known as 'chords in a box'. I'm not certain about the 'four chords in a bar' convention, but I assume the second chords are shown underneath the first: I have only seen the 'slash' notation I refer to in this thread.
Please find your example done in MuseScore: Calliope_Rag.mscz.
It took me a while because I had to experiment with font sizes and other settings to fit in the more complex structure of a rag (most classic jazz seems to be 12 or 32 bars!), but I could do a similar rag more quickly using the templates and styles created from this example. The problem with using any template is the need to set the bar breaks. This is particularly so for rags with their different line breaks for themes, intros and interludes. The template does not retain the bar breaks and so they have to be set for each new tune.
Pros of the MuseScore version:
Cons
Of course, the above is only until Marc points out how it's done properly.
Put the attached Rag Chord Chart.mss in MuseScore/Styles and put Rag Chord Chart.mscz in MuseScore/Templates/09-User. They are quick and dirty. I'm sure you can improve on them.
When creating a new chart from scratch, use the Template 'Rag Chord Chart' in the 09-User window of Templates. Add a bar break at the end of each line of bars (drag the blue bar-break symbol from the left-hand-side and drop it on the last bar rest in each line). Then type in the chords. It may help to go to Styles/Load and choose Rag Chord Chart.mss if some of the features are still wrong. If the text size is wrong, select any chord symbol and choose 'Reset Text to Style' in the Inspector.
Where there are four chords to the bar, drag the appropriate chord symbols one line down. If you want the boxes to line up really well, select the 'long' bars, right-click and choose 'Bar Properties'. Reduce 'Layout stretch' until the line of boxes is reasonably spaced and aligns with the boxes above and below.
In reply to I had a look at your example by royleith
>> "Four-bar lines fill the page width: it is not possible to reduce the width to half a page."
But it is possible to reduce the width to half a page using a "horizontal frame" as I've done below.
>> "Cannot reduce distance between two specific staves (e.g. for a single theme)"
But it is possible to reduce the max & min system distance to something small, and then at beginning of every theme, put vercial spacers:
or put vertical frames:
In reply to >> "Four-bar lines fill the by ericfontainejazz
Fantastic! Both methods work beautifully.
For those playing this at home, the bar-breaks must be removed from the last bar in the row and added to the frame. Otherwise, you get an indented stave.
It's nice to know you can do this, as well!
I thought I would experiment with the Last System Fill Threshold. When it comes to chord charts, I think the horizontal frames work better.
There's still lots more to play with in the layout chapter.
I think I will drop the Android apps format and change to 'Chords in a Box'.
In reply to >> "Four-bar lines fill the by ericfontainejazz
Marc, I'm working towards 'Chords in a Box' charts and I wonder if you can help. Setting two stave lines is fine, but is there any way to increase the line thickness?
Also, the double-barline start and end repeat symbols put the dots well outside the stave (they are positioned as they would be for a five line stave). I am happy to use stave text to put the dots in their rightful place, but is there a 'correct' fix?
A couple of enhancements for chord charts, in general (for anyone playing this at home):
Style/General
Bar - Clef left margin = 0.00sp
Barlines - Thickness = 0.40sp
Page - Untick all 'Create' boxes.
In reply to Marc, I'm working towards by royleith
Staff line thickness is in Style / General / Measure.
Putting repeat dots outside the staff lines is common for staves with an even number of lines - so they remain centered - but probably doesn't make sense if the lines are so widely spaced. I think this came up once before on forum, you might want to search to find that thread. I don't think a formal feature request was ever filed, but it probably should be.
Meanwhile, you can place the repeat dots as a symbol from the Symbols palette.
In reply to Staff line thickness is in by Marc Sabatella
Oh!
If you look earlier in the thread, you will see that my (Linux) version of MuseScore has not got Style / General - Measure (screen grab provided). Version 2.0.2 is shown on the download page as the latest stable release and I am fairly certain that I upgraded the Kubuntu distribution version using the one on the web-site. If you confirm that your V2.0.2 version has the feature, I will attempt a reinstall.
I will do a search for the repeat dots thread and consider a formal feature request.
I was beginning to think that I was being short-changed on the Symbols palette, but found it with View/Master Palette. I thought it was rather long winded at first, but realise that it can be left open with 'dot' in the search filter. The required symbol can be dragged and dropped at will.
I may stick with stave text, as the dots symbol is rather small and I did not find a way to enlarge it (nothing comes up with Edit Element or in the Inspector).
In reply to Oh! If you look earlier in by royleith
Looks like you are using the British version of the UI, which uses the term Bar instead of Measure. Same thing.
The symbol,ypu want isn't the regular augmentation dot, it's the repeat dot. Search for "repeat" and you'll find it. It's a pair of dots already sized and spaced perfectly.
In reply to Looks like you are using the by Marc Sabatella
Ah! That explains the 'Frames and Bars' palette rather than 'Frames and Measure'. Of course, bars are very important for British jazz. I will watch out for references to measures in the book and do the translation.
With my large font for chord symbols (my guys are not getting any younger) the repeat dots are still rather small. I'm satisfied with my alternative.
Thanks for your help.
In reply to Hi Roy, Thanks for your by alanrogers
I agree that Band In A Box is not great for producing chord charts. However, it is great for auditioning chord sequences. You can use the resulting BIAB file and open it in MuseScore. Then you can use the methods in this thread to produce an excellent chord chart, very quickly.
Load the attached Home - When Shadows Fall.SGU in BIAB and play it.
Now, open it in MuseScore.
Select a measure, right-click, Stave Properties.
Lines = 2, Line Distance = 7.0, just 'Show Barlines' ticked. In Advanced, untick 'Key signature'. 'OK', 'Apply', 'OK'
Edit/Tools/Add-Remove Line Breaks
Remove Existing Line Breaks
Edit/Tools/Add-Remove Line Breaks
Break Lines every 8 bars.
Style/Text Chord Symbol
Horizontal Offset = 0.50 sp, Vertical Offset = 5.00sp and 'Apply'.
Style/General Barlines
tick 'Barline at start of single stave' and 'Apply'.
Select a rest. Right-click/Select all similar Elements. Untick 'Visible'.
If you go to View and untick 'Show Invisible' you should find a chord chart in more or less the format you want. Use the other processes discussed in this thread to tidy it up. The repeat barlines need editing and there are one or two other minor improvements.
If you get it just the way you want it and Style/Save Style, many of the above stages will be done automatically for new tunes. Just Style/Load Style. Line Breaks always have to be redone and multiple chord symbols to the bar and/or complex chord symbols will need to be tidied and the bars may need to be stretched or shrunk with the '{' and '}' keys.
In reply to I agree that Band In A Box is by royleith
First, many thanks to all of you that have added time and learning to my original bleat about chord charts not being an easy/simple job in MuseScore. I originally thought it was impossible: now I'm aware that it can be done, but I'm still of the opinion that it's a hell-of-a-lot more time-consuming than doing the same job using Word, for instance (especially if you set up shortcuts for symbols such as Alt+s fo sharp, Alt+b for flat, and so on: The disadvantage of using Word is, of course, key changes are not available.
But I'm still of the opinion that an easy sub-prog. to make chord charts would be a major plus in MuseScore.
The next interesting step would be to follow-up my earlier bleat from 3 years ago and go for an SI (Systèm international) system of chord symbols to clear up the mess (and sometimes impossible-to-fathom-the-meaning-of weirdies) that exists today.
I attach my thoughts on the matter in the attached pdf file.
Thanks again to all of you. Chord symbol system 2016.pdf
In reply to First, many thanks to all of by alanrogers
In reply to First, many thanks to all of by alanrogers
That xkcd cartoon is only really relevant for making new standards that cover all old standards, not for making a ew seperate standard, which is sounds like you want to do.
Regarding triangle for major: the fact is that that regardless of whether it is the best symbol, the triangle still quickly identifies the chord as haveing major 7, and most readers are already accustomed to it.
I find that little simple shapes, o for dim, triangle for maj7, - for minor 3rd, o for diminished, etc. are great for reading, especially in poor reading environments like dimi lighting on a gig and when you can't have the music stand directly infront of your face.
>> "I would maintain that the ‘alt’ suffix is totally useless, as no - one (unless the person using it has told them ) has anything but the vaguest idea what the writer meant. Anyway, a jazz musician ‘alt s ’ almost every chord they play , so i t’ s rather like telling the m t he y should breathe."
No, alt is not useless. It say, yes this chord will be alterted in any manner. But a chord without any "alt" doesn't require the chord to be altered (and in many cases, the player may be best to not alter it, or if do alter, then to not alter too much).
>> "Nowadays , however, the ‘sus’ is redundantly tacked on to a 4 th that practically never do es either of th o se things"
But even if the 4th never moves to the 3rd, however, that is still what the 4th or *wants* to do. So even if the 4 -> 3 resolution never happens, it still makes functional sense to call is sus.
>> % for half dim
But the circle w/slash is smaller and simpler, and can more easily fit as a superscript.
I didn't cover evertyhing you wrote, but I just feel it is going to be hard and not worthwhile to start a new standard. A lot of these notational quicks are a result of gradual evolution, which is why they might not make perfect logical sense, but just like words of English lanaguge, people are still going to use them.
In reply to That xkcd cartoon is only by ericfontainejazz
From time-to-time I hear musicians complaining about the "alt" chord symbol, and I think it's simply due to a misunderstanding.
The "alt" symbol (e.g. C7alt) commonly means that any chord extensions, other than the notes specified by the basic chord symbol (e.g. root, third, fifth and seventh), should be altered *if* and *when* played.
In practice, I've only ever seen "alt" used in connection with dominant 7th chord types, and it means that the b9, #9, #11, #5/b13 extensions are available (but not that they all necessarily *should* be included within the chosen voicing).
The dominant 7th "alt" chord symbol relates to the seventh mode of the (jazz) melodic minor (AKA altered dominant, super-locrian or diminshed whole-tone) scale - i.e, all available notes in the chord can be seen to be drawn from that scale.
For example, these chord symbols specify that only the indicated altered extensions *should* be played:
C7b9
C7b9, #11
C7b9, b13 (or #5)
C7b9, #11, b13 (or #5)
C7#9
C7#9, #11
C7#9, b13 (or #5)
C7#9, #11, b13 (or #5)
C7b9,#9,#11,b13,
Whereas C7alt, in contrast, implies that all the altered extensions are available but that the decision as to exactly which of those extensions is/are played is left up to the performer.