Forcing lyrics to overlap
I am trying to set some lyrics in a very tight measure (every measure is meant to be the same width, which has been a separate nightmare), and I can't figure out how to force the lyrics to overlap to accommodate the spacing of the measure. I've attached a .png of the "best" I can get, which is obviously terrible. I tried separating it into two voices with invisible rests but didn't fare any better. Is there a help topic I missed?
Obviously there are other unusual features even in this one measure—I'm trying to match the composer's deliberately "wrong" stylístic choices as much as possible while improving readability.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| text setting.png | 23.61 KB |
Comments
Use different stanzas/verses for those, here: change "have", "that" and "falls" to verse 2
In reply to Use different stanzas/verses… by Jojo-Schmitz
no improvement sadly
In reply to no improvement sadly by lindleymoffat1
Please share the score
In reply to Please share the score by Jojo-Schmitz
the problem measure is measure 20
In reply to the problem measure is… by lindleymoffat1
OK, but that looks very different from your image above. Also the additional "1." and "2." eats space.
![Screenshot 2023-08-27 195220.png]( "Screenshot 2023-08-27 195220.png")
But indeed I can't get it narrower than this:
In reply to the problem measure is… by lindleymoffat1
Well, I can:
![Screenshot 2023-08-27 195605.png]( "Screenshot 2023-08-27 195605.png")
Playing with the notes' leading space setting (seems -1.5 is a tad too much)
In reply to Well, I can: [inline… by Jojo-Schmitz
I think this is the best solution that's been proposed, thank you
In reply to I think this is the best… by lindleymoffat1
You wrote:
I'm trying to match the composer's deliberately "wrong" stylístic choices as much as possible...
This is the composer's deliberately ""wrong"" choice:
![Lyrics.png]( "Lyrics.png")
![Lyrics3.png]( "Lyrics3.png")
Note the position of those lyrics.
Okay, it seems I was mistaken...
So, you're not trying to match the composer's deliberately "wrong" stylistic choices as much as possible.
My misunderstanding.
In reply to You wrote: I'm trying to… by Jm6stringer
I certainly see what you mean and it is something I thought about, but ultimately I'm not making a digital reproduction, rather trying to make a more readable version, and trusting my own judgment as to what is and isn't a necessary component of the music (the composer set about 20 lines of text in about 50 years, so I'm confident it was not a major concern of his). I'm sorry if my tone was not respectful, I've been wrestling with Musescore at every measure and I didn't want to have to defend why I'm doing this (God only knows), but just wanted to know how to solve one of the million problems it's posed. Thanks for your feedback
In reply to You wrote: I'm trying to… by Jm6stringer
You might be able buy a tiny bit of space by combining the repeat bar lines instead of separating them with the 9/8 time signature.
In reply to You might be able buy a tiny… by bobjp
do you know how to do that? I would love to
In reply to do you know how to do that?… by lindleymoffat1
I spoke before I tried it. It is doable, but lots of steps. Hard to say if it is worth it.
![98.png]( "98.png")
It involves deleting the 9/8 signature. Placing it in the measure before and unchecking it's 'Auto placement' in Properties. Drag it out of the way. delete the double repeat bar lines and replace with the right an left repeat sign. Select measure properties for the measure before the repeat and change 'Actual' duration to 8/8 (or whatever the measures before are) now drag the 9/8 into position. You may have to move things around as you add notes. and lyrics. I've never tried anything like this. Maybe someone has a better idea.
In reply to I spoke before I tried it… by bobjp
Ayayay that's a lot of steps considering there are entire sections that look like this. I really appreciate you seeing the idea through, but I do hope someone has a less involved solution!
Wait. You know it's wrong. Anyone who gets confused trying to read it, knows it's wrong. The composer doesn't seem to care. Can you guess where I'm going?
In reply to Wait. You know it's wrong… by bobjp
what's wrong within this measure is not the composer's intention; my duty is to convey the confusion he built into his music with as little disturbance as possible, and certainly not to make it more confusing
In reply to what's wrong within this… by lindleymoffat1
What we need is a picture of the score you are working from.
In reply to What we need is a picture of… by bobjp
I don't know how helpful this is, but it at least shows why a digital engraving might be desirable. Both the composer and I are under his constraint that there be 9 equally-spaced measures per system, and my goal is to improve readability while keeping to that
In reply to I don't know how helpful… by lindleymoffat1
FWIW, I think his way is more legible. But not by much. Is the measures per line part of the visual experience of reading the music?
In reply to FWIW, I think his way is… by bobjp
yes, and one that makes digital engraving a constant headache. Mine is certainly less legible, and that's because of this problem I'm having with Musescore
Use staff text having the same font and size as the lyrics.
![Lyrics.png]( "Lyrics.png")
In reply to Use staff text having the… by Jm6stringer
That's a good idea, thank you. I was hoping to avoid a "hack" like this, but it may very well be my best option
In reply to That's a good idea, thank… by lindleymoffat1
Lyrics are assigned to individual notes. You are trying to "cram" the lyrics into a smaller space.
That's the "hack'.
My idea employs a different feature to avoid your hack. Staff text can be adjusted independent of note spacing (which is actually what you want).
I'd like to take a step back for a moment. Did the composer actually specify 9 equally spaced measures per line? Or is that what is present in his score. It is hand done, so he could do whatever. Is this the only copy of the score? Where the performers supposed to have copies. If so, do we know those copies adhered to these restraints? How do we know other people haven't made more legible copies already?
I guess my question is more along the lines of what does the look of the score have to do with the performance? A perfect MuseScore copy won't look like the hand written copy. So there is already a problem. Sure, there are composers that set up their music a certain way for a certain reason. I don't think I see this here.
I know people who answer questions are supposed to try to help the poster do whatever it is they want to do. But still...
In reply to I'd like to take a step back… by bobjp
All of the composer's scores in this period have 9 equally spaced measures per line, and while it's not exactly obvious why it's necessary in this piece, in others it is very significant (e.g. leading to unsynchronized polyrhythms, which would be difficult to notate "correctly") and in all of them it has a pronounced psychological effect on performers that they notice and—at least among those devoted to performing this music—prefer.
Universal Edition has already made copies decades ago but they omit this feature, leading many performers to instead read from copies of the hand-written manuscripts, which are certainly less legible but truer to the composer's intentions and the proper relationship between the performer and the score. And so, along with getting to know the music more intimately that's one of my primary reason for resetting it, and it has been agonizing throughout!
In reply to All of the composer's scores… by lindleymoffat1
Here's my take. You are free to ignore it. Those performers who have always read from the hand-written manuscripts are, of course, going to prefer them. They aren't going to like printed versions because they are so different. If I always read music that is printed, and am suddenly confronted with a hand written jumble, what do you suspect I will prefer? Of course, there is a certain psychological effect. That doesn't make one right and one wrong. Looking at the few measures you have posted, I would have no idea how to perform them without spending quite some time trying to figure them out. And would probably re-write some of the measures. Guess what? I get to do that. Why? Because music is not what is on the page. What if I learned my part from a recording and not from the page? Does that make the performance less legitament?
We spend a great deal of time worried about the composers intent. But there is no way that a performer is going to realize that intent 100%, every time. I believe that the performer has a more important job than the composer. Without the performer, sheet music is just dots on a page. Void. Sure, some contemporary composers play some games with the printed page. But it doesn't make that page any more or less music.
But, I know that doesn't help your predicament