Should Timeline be able to rearrange score's instrument order?
This is how the instrument column of the timeline looks currently:
I'm thinking it would be useful to be able to quickly rearrange the Score's instrument order just using the Timeline.
This saves time from opening and closing the Edit->Instruments dialog. I would suggest having a little '^' and 'v' stacked vertically that appears when mouse-over each instrument...and when pressed the '^' or 'v' would promote or demote that instrument's Score order:
However, an argument JoshuaBonn1 raised against this was that the Timeline is not to be used for score editing, only navigation.
Comments
My view on the timeline working for navigation stemmed from a discussion with lasconic that the timeline is to be used for navigation. Rather than pack a bunch of functionality for the score into the timeline, let the user find where they are trying to edit and then use the score to edit.
With that being said, I do think this exists in a gray zone. There are plans to make the meta rows rearrange-able using the same idea as ericfontainejazz explained here, so it'd make sense to extend that ability down to the instruments as well.
In reply to My view on the timeline by JoshuaBonn1
> "Rather than pack a bunch of functionality for the score into the timeline, let the user find where they are trying to edit and then use the score to edit."
Well this specific argument doesn't apply to rearranging instrument order, since navigation doesn't help find controls for rearranging instrument order.
But of course there is the more general argument that says timeline should only do one thing: navigation.
It has occurred to me that instruments hidden via Edit->Instruments are also hidden from the timeline. So a small problem would be that rearranging an instrument neighboring hidden instruments would be a bit ambiguous, case don't know where should move to relative the hidden instruments, since can't see them in the timeline.
In reply to It has occurred to me that by ericfontainejazz
When I first saw your instrument list, I thought it would be good to be able to see invisible instrument somehow, perhaps grayed out. If I'm not going to use an instrument for several measures I will make it invisible until I need to use it. This is very useful in transcribing music.
In reply to When I first saw your by mike320
I too would find that functionlity useful. I didn't want to suggest it now in this forum post so that I can keep the feature requests sepeate. However, if do add show/hide functionlity to mixer, then that would resovle my concern above, since the hidden instruments would still be listed.
There is the additoinal question of whether cells for the instrument data should be displayed if that instrument is hidden. If the cell data was still shown, then would have to ensure that those cells aren't clickable. It might be better in that case to simply blank or grey out those hidden instrument cells.
In reply to I too would find that by ericfontainejazz
For the purpose that I would use it for it would be better to have a different colored hue to show used measures as with visible instruments. Go ahead and make them unclickable but show if there is music there. For the case of the song I'm currently working on this would be useful. It switches between 1, 2, 3 and back to 1 then 2....
In reply to For the purpose that I would by mike320
I do have a concern about having too many hues on the timeline. However, we are already using a light-cyan hue to represent cells that are not in the score view. I'm thinking it would keep the timeline not too busy if used that same hue to also represent hidden rows... Of course if used the same hue, then couldn't represent the fact that cells from hidden instruments are not clickable (other than a visual indicator for each instrument name indicating that it is hidden).
In reply to I do have a concern about by ericfontainejazz
It is worth mentioned that maybe clicking on a cell of a hidden instrument could still navigate to that measure, even though it wouldn't be possible to select that hidden instrument's measure.
In reply to I do have a concern about by ericfontainejazz
Like gray out the instrument name like the "Don't hide staves in first system" when it's not selectable from the style-general menu.
In reply to Like gray out the instrument by mike320
So to be clear, you mean to have the actual text of the instrument names be medium grey instead of black?
In reply to So to be clear, you mean to by ericfontainejazz
Yes.
In reply to Yes. by mike320
Ok, so I'm trying to mock up...here I have Alto Sax written in grey to indicate it is invisible, and then I'm using the same hue that cells outside of viewable range are colored with:
I'm think this works. (I'm even wondering the dark cyan thick lined border might even be unnecessary at this point...might be too much information.)
I'm wondering if there needs to be a little eye with its eyes shut or open when you can see when hover over instrument names, and then when you click it will toggle visibility.
In reply to Ok, so I'm trying to mock by ericfontainejazz
I think the eyes are going a bit over board.
I would be very pleased to see something like that. The cyan is consistent because you can't see those measures, but they are still there.
In reply to I think the eyes are going a by mike320
well I think the user would need something that indicates that clicking it will toggle visibility.
In reply to well I think the user would by ericfontainejazz
Why not just click the instrument and press V to make it visible like everything else in a score.
In reply to Why not just click the by mike320
well that is an idea. But "V" is means to toggle the drawing of an element while not removing the space that they take up.
In reply to well that is an idea. But by ericfontainejazz
Currently, no focus is held on the timeline, so keyboard shortcuts would not work unless that was changed (at least as far as I know). No focus is held to allow the user to copy, paste, and perform other keyboard commands on the score after using the timeline without having to click on the score before entering the command.
In reply to Currently, no focus is held by JoshuaBonn1
Thanks for reminding us. Yeah, any keyboard commands are out of the question. My favorite is still the open eye and closed eye, just like the MuseScore mobile app.
In reply to Thanks for reminding us. by ericfontainejazz
I've not seen the mobile app. I thought you were joking about the eyes. The eyes would be fine.
This seems like a good idea to me.
I agree with JoshuaBonn1 that the timeline should not be used for score editing.
In reply to I agree with JoshuaBonn1 that by RobFog
I do want more specific reason.
The thing that is different about most other edit operations is that rearranging & hiding instruments is something that is not currently editable from the score view. Which is why I'm want and think it is ok to be able to do that from the timeline.
In reply to I do want more specific by ericfontainejazz
Maybe there is a more suitable place to accommodate rearranging and hiding instruments.
I think if I were a user trying the timeline for the first time I would not expect to be able to make edits there.
In reply to Maybe there is a more by RobFog
Well Edit->Instruments (accessible via "i") is currently the place for rearranging and hiding instruments. There is no other suitable place other than this timeline, since the timeline has the advantage of having all the instrument names listed in a compact area. I do generally find myself doing a lot of hiding/unhiding and rearranging order when dealing with large scores where I'm dealing with sections where I only want to focus on a few instruments at a time. So a single-click operation here in the timeline to me is the most suitable place for that.
In reply to I agree with JoshuaBonn1 that by RobFog
I'm just looking for ALL the info on the score to be displayed. Having invisible instruments being displayed would be good info for me and probably other people as well.
In reply to I'm just looking for ALL the by mike320
I wish I had made a separate forum post for displaying cells of invisible instruments in light cyan and having a way to toggle via timeline. That way I don't get that discussion mixed with instrument reorder.
Anyway, I went ahead and filed an issue feature request for #234081: Display cells from hidden instruments in the timeline, using cyan shading, and maybe allow toggle hiding directly from timeline, since I haven't heard any objections to that and since the timeline is supposed to give an overview of the entire score.