Let's change philosophy of tuplets and irregular mesures!
Currently, in order to introduce into the score more complicated tuplet (especially baroque ornaments, but not limited to), I have to make many calculations. I am just writing a score with many complicated tuplets and it is very awkward, because in every bar I need select from the menu Notes > tuplets > other and laboriously count notes and values and proporions from my manuscript. Writing by hand is much faster!
My idea is the opposite of what is working today: Let us count the computer - it was invented for this purpose! (I'm not a programmer, but a lazy user who likes variety of facilitation. ;-) )
My idea of writing of tuplets is the following:
1. I select a value (note or rest), which will be divided into smaller irregular values.
2. I press a note/rest with the right mouse button and choose from the drop-down list the option Tuplet (or any cay shortcut just for tuplet or from menu - the least desirable).
3. I enter in the frame of selected value as many notes and rests in different values (smaller than the value selected for division) as I want and I don't need to calculate anything and chose from many options separately for each kind of tuplets!
4. I'm finishing operation, for instance with the key enter.
5. The software calculates the ratio and makes the bracket for the group of the notes with the corresponding number.
6. Possibility of any adjustments is needed, for instance the computer types 6, but I prefer 3 or I don't want any number and/or bracket.
The same problem - and even much bigger - is with irregular measures, because if I want to insert different irregularities in more staves in whole system together, I need make really complitated calculations.
I think it should be possibly to write irregular measures on really irregular way, with no complicate calcultaions. The way to do it may be the same as I described for tuplets (change tuplets with measures please).
The irregular bars should not force to use of the same amount of value in each staves in one bar of the system. It should be ... irregular.
In this context there is another problem: often vertical arrangement of tuplets is not satisfactory. Very easy solution would be the possibility of moving the notes to the left and right with the mouse or arrow keys, as well as pauses and other elements (now the arrow keys are not used for this purpose - it's a pitty, because in other softwares it makes possible to obtain high precision if there is possibility to choice distance of movement with a single key press, for example 0.1 mm, 0,2 mm, ... 1 mm etc.).
Comments
What you are describing in the first part of your post if more a magical drawing software than a score editor unfortunatly. A software working like this would probably sacrify playback, interoperability etc... or work only in the simplest cases.
Regarding the last point, you can move anything in the score with double click and then use the arrows. If you need more precision use shift, control and alt.
In reply to What you are describing in by [DELETED] 5
> What you are describing in the first part of your post if more a magical drawing software than a score editor unfortunatly.
As I wrote, I am not a programmer. But I don't think it is impossibly. If I can calcutlate tuplets, why computer can't?
> A software working like this would probably...
Probably or certainly? If I can choose from the list for instance a triplet, why computer - after calculation that it is a triplet - can't choose the same option with the same consequences for the score integrity with no engaging a writer?
> Regarding the last point, you can move anything in the score with double click and then use the arrows. If you need more precision use shift, control and alt.
Thank you very much. :), I didn't find this information in the manual. I very need it.
In reply to > What you are describing in by muzyk98
Not explicilty mentioned that it works for notes too, but see http://musescore.org/en/handbook/keyboard-shortcuts, the section about lyrics and http://musescore.org/en/handbook/edit-mode, where it mainly deals with the handles of slurs.
No idea whether the polish handbok is up-to-date enough to have that information too...
In reply to > What you are describing in by muzyk98
Write me, please, how it is possible to select more notes for this operation (and many others, like changing for tuplets)?
And what about text? Double clik is for edition
You can already easily select a value and divide it into smaller values:
5 [Ctrl]-3 selects a note of duration 5 (crotchet or quarter note) and splits it into 3 (a typical triplet). Then just enter the letters ABC (or FEF or whatever) and you have a triplet.
4 [Ctrl]-5 selects a note of duration 4 (quaver or eighth note) and splits it into 5 (less common but sometimes seen).
5 . [Ctrl]-2 selects a note of duration three quavers (in 6/8 time for instance) and turns it into a couplet.
It gets more complicated when you want to have 13 sixteenth notes in the space of a minim or something similar (you can only go up to [Ctrl]-9) but such situations are less common.
If you click on a rest and type [Ctrl]-n it gets split into n equal rests ready for you to enter notes into.
In reply to You can already easily select by underquark
Of course, but in the moment I work with 13-17/8 tuplets and it is not so easy and very slow, because at the beginning I must count notes in my manuscript in every bar (with different number of notes), and after I must make many steps to achieve a single tuplet! A score I can write by hand in 30 minutes I wrote yesterday with MuseScore some hours!!!
But
>If you click on a rest and type [Ctrl]-n ...
I get a... new score. :-D
> It gets more complicated when you want to have 13 sixteenth notes in the space of a minim or something similar (you can only go up to [Ctrl]-9) but such situations are less common.
In barock ornaments it is common.
In reply to Of course, but in the moment by muzyk98
Misunderstood
In reply to Of course, but in the moment by muzyk98
Could you post an example of what you mean? I am having trouble picturing it. are you saying that if you create a tuplet with thirteen notes in it, you find it tedious to coint the notes and type "13" into the box where you tell MuseScore how many notes, and you,d rather just type the notes and let MuseScore count the, for you? I can't really see how that could save more than a couple of seconds here or there. And I don't know what you mean about it taking "many steps" to create the tuplet. Surely if it's difficult for you to figure out what is going on, it is going to be umpteen time more difficult for someone *reading* the score to figure out too?
In reply to Could you post an example of by Marc Sabatella
Hallo :)
There are attached two examples of pieces with many complicated tuplets I worked on last days (brevis in this context doesn't mean a value, but a pitch for polysyllabic recitation, as it is used in church music, for instance in Psalms, but MuseScore nothing know about it).
It was very easy to write this songs by hand, but really very unpleasant to type with MuseScore, the more so because the software contains bugs and can't properly copy and paste tuplets - in about 50% of cases it was a problem, so I had to write some bars several times in a new place, because instead of helping myself by pasting once calculated tuplet and only changing pitches, I spoiled the already finished parts (the software adds after pasting of tuplets undefined value to the tuplet; sometimes it result as an extra (not removable) dott added to any note, sometime it moves rigt notes in the next bar(s), sometime it deletes first or some first notes in the beginnign of the next bar. In the nigthtly verion even worse - it adds in the next bar some very small values - notes or rests or changing/dividing existing noets into very small values. When I checked the proportion in the tuplet box, I found crasy numbers, for instance 3749 / 8. (If somebody wants, I can send my MuseScore files for experiments.)
Writing these pieces was more time-consuming because you can not select and change a few rests / notes into the same tuplet at the same time (for instans vertically in all staves in the same bar), but you have to do it step by step separately. In nightly version it is even worse - you can change notes only! Before I get a tuplet, I must change a rest into a note! When I try to change a brevis rest, I get a message, that it is not possible, because... value is too short!!!
Similarly, setting all the notes and syllabes in the right place is very complicated - you cann't move a few notes/rests/syllabes at once, but you have to do it individually. There is also missing so helpfulness gadget as guiding movable lines to attract sliding objects to align them precisely at the right place.
And I faced another problem - may be I don't know, how to do it right. When I wrote text under a brevis,
the note moves centrally above the phrase. I want to have it left and I don't know, how to do it easy - I moved all single notes left with arrow key.
Another problem can be seen in the file "Modlitwa Siostry Faustyny". When I hid empty staves, bar lines partially disappeared. :(
> I can't really see how that could save more than a couple of seconds
Try to retype some bars of attached pieces, the you can see, how you can save some hours, not seconds. ;-) It will be still easier than from the manuscript - you can count the notes more quickly.
Compare the current way of getting complicated tuplets above 9 and my proposal:
A. The current way
1 I calculate the amount of notes in the tuplet and determine the proportion (takes most of time of the operation)
2. I select the note / pause
3. I choose "menu"
4. I choose "tuplet"
5. I choose "other" (there is no shortcut! - I need as many as three steps to get this option)
6. I type proportion
7. Finally I type notes - it takes least amount of time of the whole procedure! Instead of working creatively, I am turning into a mechanical counter, providing a service to my computer.
B. My proposal
1. I select the note / pause with mouse
2. I choose shortcut "undetermined tuplet" or "undetermined irregular measure" or with the rigt mouse button with no the previous step
3. I simply write a melody I hear in my head, not the laboriously counted notes
4. Enter - done! Computer counts the proportion and chooses the rigt number (if I want to have it). In irregular bars I don't need any number at all - it is only an internal interest of the software.
Most of time I spent on writing. For the other steps I need just one mouse click and pressing 1 or 2 two keys, depending on way of choice of the value for conversion. May be in a single operation it is a small advantage. But when I writing songs such as attached - I can save some hours. But I am not a programmer - I don't know how to make it an how it can works insde the sofware. :(
I hope before the next debater will want to criticize my idea, he/she will think a little bit deeper for a moment about it. And if that's not enough, I suggest a short exercise in rewriting the attached songs.
In reply to Two examples by muzyk98
Not sure if you meant to post an example that contained tuplets - neither of the ones you posted does. Neither appear to be Baroque either - they seem to be measureless music in Rennaisance style?
From your explanation, I thought I might understand better. It's not that you are trying to enter particular complex tuplets - it's just that if you wish to enter a tuplet containing 11 notes, you don't wish to have to count to 11? As I said, it's really difficult for me to imagine this being so common that it would cost more than a few seconds per page of music, but sure, a features in which instead of entering the numbers of notes first, you entered the notes (into a separate dialog, perhaps) and MsueScore countt them for you might save your those few seconds.
But again, I don't understand how the examples you posted relate to this disucssion at all - they don't appear to contain any tuplets of any kind.
Unless perhaps you are saying that you are are trying to simulate the effect of measureless music by entering all those notes as tuplets then hiding the brackets? That would indeed be extremely laborious. Luckoily, though, that is not at all how this is normally done in MuseScore. Instead, simply enter the notes normally - no tuplets of any kind whatsoever - but tell MuseScore (via Measure Properties in the right click dialog) how many beats you want in the measure.
And yes, that's still somewhat laborious, but nowhere near as bad as what you apparently are trying to do. And there are already outstanding features requests - some of which have been addressed already in 2.0 - to make entering measureless music easier. But that doesn't have anything to do with tuplets or with Baroque music at alll (your examples appear to bre rather earlier), which is why we were so confused by your description.
Note sure about about your other points regarding moving notes, either - why do you need to move them, and under what circumstances are thinking that moving more than one at a time would be helpful? I am not understanding that. Perhapsd you just want to increase after one note, and have ebverything later in the measure move to the right? There are easier ways of doing that. One is to insert notes or rests and then mark them invisible. Another is using Note Properties (from right click menu) to add additional trailing or leading space to individual notes. No reason you should have to be moving several notes at once.
So it appears at least *some* of your concerns may concern from your simply not knowing how to achieve the effects you are trying to achieve, and then trying something that is indeed very inefficient.
BTW, you can define shortcuts to Notes/Tuplets/Other just as you can for most other operations in MuseScore - see Edit/Preferences/Shortcuts.
In reply to Of course, but in the moment by muzyk98
Hmmm... I wouldn't say that in Baroque oramentation it is common to find such ratios. It happens, probably more in French 'virtuoso' music than in other schools and if you happen to stumble on one of 'those' pieces, yes, it might be annoying, but it is not so common.
I don't have ver. 1.2 installed on the OS I'm working right now and I can't check precisely, but do you know you can use a dlg box to enter the number of notes you want to fit and the number of notes they stand for and "have the computer do the calculations"? If I am not mistaken, it is under "Notes | Tuplets | Other".
M.
In reply to Hmmm... I wouldn't say that by Miwarre
> it is not so common.
May be for you not. For me yes, because I am working on barock ornamentation. Did you seen for instans Benda's 12 violin sonatas with original ornamented version of the solo voice from the Berlin manuscript? Or baroque/pre-classical cadezas I found some hundreds in old manuscripts?
> you can use a dlg box to enter the number of notes you want to fit and the number of notes they stand for and "have the computer do the calculations"?
I'm afraid you didn't consider what I wrote and about what you write too. Before I choose / enter the number to let the computer count, I have to count the notes myself what I don't want to do.
> If I am not mistaken, it is under "Notes | Tuplets | Other".
You even didn't read all I wrote. You can read in the FIRST my sentence: "it is very awkward, because in every bar I need select from the menu Notes > tuplets > other and laboriously count notes and values and proportions from my manuscript."
Hmmm... Before you will start with criticism, you should think a little bit...