Local time signature
I am writing a Saxophone septet for English Folk Songs Suite, and if you know the song, part of the band splits off into 6/8 and the rest stays in 2/4. I got the soprano part written successfully into 6/8, but when I try to make another part 6/8, it tells me that the measure is not empty. All the measures ahead of this point are completely empty. I did an experiment where I tried deleting everything from every part to see if it would still say it isnt empty, and it says it is not empty. Any suggestions?
Comments
Local time signatures have a lot of problems. One of the problems is that once you change a measure after a local time signature, the only thing you can do is go to an empty measure and insert a new global time signature (maybe). You cannot put a local time signature on a measure that has notes affected by the local time signature on any staff. You will need to copy what is in 2/4 somewhere like a temporary score so you don't have to reenter those measures. Select starting at the local time signature to the end of the score and ctrl+delete to get rid of all of those measures. You can then append new measures to the end of the score. Now paste any good 2/4 measures you copied elsewhere. Next you need to apply the 6/8 to every instrument that needs it. Before you enter ANYTHING (this includes changing a rest) into the measures following this, find where you will return to a global time signature and insert it as needed. You can use for example a local 2/4 signature on the needed instruments and everything should be back to the way it was before. This is as long as all instruments are using the same time signature.
You may have figured this out already, but you cannot copy from or paste to any measure affected by a local time signature. So you will need to enter all 6/8 sections of this score one at a time.
You may want to check this out: https://musescore.org/en/node/254556 Let me know if it is not clear so I can fix it.
In reply to Local time signatures have a… by mike320
Thank you for the response. However, even when doing what you said it still tells me the measures are not empty. Any more suggestions? I've been working at fixing this for a while now
In reply to Thank you for the response… by Nitsujy12345
Upload the file, and I'll look at it.
In reply to Thank you for the response… by Nitsujy12345
Unfortunately, due to the way things are implemented internally, there are a number of things that can go wrong that all produce pretty generic error messages. So indeed, we could help better if you attach your actual score and steps to reproduce the problem.
I can say that not only the measures on the staff you are working with need to be empty - all the way up until the next time signature change - but also other staves may need need to be empty. Basically, things work best if you add local time signatures before adding any notes whatsoever to the affected sections or afterwards.
In reply to Unfortunately, due to the… by Marc Sabatella
I will upload the file in a second. The entire score was empty and it still would tell me that it was not empty.
It isn't a serious issue right now because since it is a 6/8 in a 2/4 I just made the 68 part written in triplets. I want to still know for future reference.
In reply to I will upload the file in a… by Nitsujy12345
At measure 64, as it currently sits both Soprano saxes switch to 6/8. However, I want to swap the Soprano 2 with Alto 1, as the range for the part I gave the Soprano 2 isn't correct. (Not sure what I was thinking a while ago when I put that part on Soprano...). I tried removing everything from measure 63 forward and it would still not work. I even tried deleting everything completely and it did not work. (By delete, yes, I mean remove the measures and append them back.) Your help is much appreciated.
In reply to At measure 64, as it… by Nitsujy12345
Hmm, to be honest, I can't say what is going on here. I suspect, though, the score is somehow internally corrupted, as it works in a score I create from scratch. Unfortunately, local time signatures are pretty limited and a bit buggy, I'm afraid. Maybe someone else will see something. Meanwhile, I would recommend filing a bug report on this. The steps I would suggest listing these:
1) Ctrl+A to select all
2) Delete to delete all existing notes/rests
3) Ctrl+drag 6/8 from palette to measure 64, alto 1
Result: error message. Same error if you try removing the 6/8 from one of the soprano staves.
In reply to Hmm, to be honest, I can't… by Marc Sabatella
@ Marc,
The problem with you method is that once anything is entered into a measure with a local time signature it is considered to have been changed, even if you delete everything in the measures and cannot be pasted or have ANY time signature added. As an aside, if you enter a local time signature, enter a note into an affected measure and immediately undo it, you will not be able to do anything with the local time signature or add a new time signature at a later time.
@ Nitsujy12345
I have not been able to work much on this score, but here is what I have done so far to make the file usable:
Selected the first 62 measures (because 63 has a slur that extends to 64) and used File->Save as... to create a new file that does not include any local time signature.
I then opened the file I created and used view->documents stacked with one file on top and one on bottom so I can compare the files. From here I only changed the new file.
Appended 70 measures to the score.
Copied everything in mm 63-end for alto 2 throug bari. Those instruments are now complete.
Copied Alto 1 to soprano 2 (as per your instructions) mm 63 to the end.
Added 6/8 to measure for Soprano 1 and Alto 1.
Added 2/4 to measure 97 as global time signature.
Copied everything from measure 97 to the end to the new score for Soprano and Alto 1. I also swapped alto 1 and soprano 2.
I inserted the repeat bar lines out of concern they are part of the problem. I have not previously tested the affect of repeats on local time signatures.
I then entered a few notes into Soprano 1 and Alto 1 with no issues. Of course, as I stated earlier, I couldn't copy a few measures I wanted from one to the other. Since I don't transpose between Bb and Eb instruments very quickly, I changed Alto 1 to soprano for copying. I plan to change it back to Alto 1 after mm 63-96 are complete.
All that I did is according to the instructions I previously gave you concerning local time signatures.
After this is complete, I would then add voltas, codas and so forth. Also, I inserted the Tempo indication a little different than you did. See attached.
In reply to @Marc, The problem with you… by mike320
Hmm, it should not be the case that entering then delete notes changes anything with regard to local time signatures. I just did a test of several things I thought you might be referring to but was unable to reproduce a problem no matter what I tried. For example:
1) new empty score in 4/4 for two instruments
2) add notes to bar 3 of bottom instrument
3) ctrl+drag 3/4 to that measure
4) add notes to another measure later on on that staff
5) delete them
6) ctrl+drag 4/4 to that measure
7) add a note
8) undo
9) ctrl+drag 2/4 to that measure
Everything worked as expected.
So maybe I am misunderstanding something, or there was something else going on in the score that led you to believe it was the mere act of entering then deleting notes that caused the problem?
In reply to Hmm, it should not be the… by Marc Sabatella
Perhaps when I found this issue, like there was another instrument with a local time signature in the same measure and I don't remember it being there. The other instrument would have had notes in it and prevented removing the local time signature. I have done a lot of testing with local time signatures and don't remember exactly what led me to believe that. I will remove that from my list of limitations.
In reply to Perhaps when I found this… by mike320
That would certainly explain it, but since we also see an issue with the score posted here even after deleting all content, there clearly is something to this - some particular chain of events that can result in measures being seen as non-empty even after deleting all content. I'm going to try running under the debugger to see if I can track down the actual problem, but it might not be today...
In reply to At measure 64, as it… by Nitsujy12345
I think you should write them all in the same time signature and export the parts and change their time signature. Or don't. In an orchestra conducted by a conductor that would cause a lot of problems.
Mystery solved, sorry I didn't notice this earlier: you can't have already generated linked parts when adding or removing local time signatures.