Having the possibility to choose between automatic placement or not as a default setting

• Mar 4, 2019 - 19:40

What I miss of musescore 2 is that I could put everything where I wanted. Now with automatic placement everything is much more complicated because the computer never puts things where I would like them to be. I waste a lot of time by disabling all the automatic placements manually, when it comes to a big score it turns out to be hundreds of times that I have to click there with the mouse. I know automatic placement is good for someone, but for me it isn't at all, so why not having the possiblity to choose from the beginning whether to have it as default or not?


Comments

I would encourage you, though, to attach a score you are having trouble with so we can assist better. The whole point of automatic placement is that you should not need to waste time doing so many manual adjustments, and even in the cases where you do, it should not be necessary to disable autoplace to do it most of the time - in fact, it is often compeltely counterproductive.

If you attach your score and explain the sort of adjustments you are wanting to do, we can almost certainly show you how to use MsueScore 3 to achieve the results you want with much less manual adjustment than you are currently enduring in MuseScore 2.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Ok thanks. I am still writing the piece and I prefer to attach it in some weeks when it is finished, with all the indications about where I am having problems. I think automatic placement is thought for a normal score layout and it is ok, but since I mainly write contemporary music which often has verbal indications, symbols and images on the score I find more useful to have freedom of placement. Anyway when I have the score ready in some weeks it will give a better idea.

In reply to by giovannizaniol

For text specifically, you can set the "Autoplace min. distance" to a large negative value in Format / Styles / Staff Text (and other types). This will disable it for those types. But again, it's actually quite simple to disable it individually, and I think you'll find that even with the extra second it takes to do so when needed, the amount of time it saves in other situations will more than pay for it.

With that in mind, I'd encourage you to post an example sooner rather than later, as chances are very good you are not doing things in the most efficient way right now, and if you let us help you today, you may get much further in the next few weeks than you would have on your own!

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Ok thank you for your help, I tried to change the minimum distance as you said and it is going better. I attach you the score even if still under construction. In blu and red are the things I am having issues with, anyway the main issue is that if I have many things on the score and I want to save space automatic placement is sometimes a problem. Another idea is to create a keyboard shortcut to remove automatic placement from the selected element, so if I want to do it many times I can do it fast from the keyboard without having to search it with the mouse.

Attachment Size
Mar_grigio.mscz 67.57 KB

In reply to by giovannizaniol

Thanks - an impressive amount of work put in that already, it seems to me!

For the record, I have submitted a PR (code to implement a change) that will add a keyboard shortcut to disable automatic placement, also to make Alt+drag do that automatically, so a future update may include this. It may also become possible o disable autoplace entirely, but the results would normally be pretty bad, actually. Sure, you had to disable it for a small handful of elements, but in the vast majority of cases, it worked so well you didn't even give it a second thought. If it were disabled, you'd have had to do many more manual adjustments to get things looking this good. All those slurs you didn't have to reshape, all those articulations and lyrics you didn't have to move, all those spacers you didn't need to add, etc.

Meanwhile, looking at your score, I see a few things going on where there is room for improvement, either on your part or ours.

Dynamics are a snap to place above vocal staves, no need to disable autoplace or indeed do any sort of manual adjustment. Just press "X" to flip above the staff, leaving autoplace enabled to do its job. Not only is it a ton easier, but it would avoid the collision you other are having with other elements above the staff (or below the staff above) that caused you to need to make yet more manual adjustments. In other words, by disabling autoplace for those dynamics unnecessarily, you created a situation where you needed to make yet more manual adjustments, when everything would have just worked had you let it.

You have a marking that says "about 15" - 20" is entered as staff text, and you are trying to place it on top of a line you entered as a pedal marking. Is that really a pedal marking? If not - and I'm guessing it isn't - it should not have been entered as one. The fact that you entered that as a pedal then flipped it above the staff is part of the source of your problem here. had you simply entered that as a normal line, it would have appeared in the correct place automatically. You wouldn't have had to flip it above the staff, you wouldn't have had to disable autoplace, and you wouldn't have needed to disable it on the text either.

A more general issue is when you try moving elements a long ways horizontally, as MuseScore tries by default to reserve space for the. To some extent you can address this by not attaching the element so far from where you want it to appear, but in other cases, there is little choice. I see that with the images of time signatures you have created. Here, there should be better way. One would be, what if we allowed you to attach images to time signatures? Then you wouldn't need to move them. Or, if we supported the display of these large time signatures automatically. A clever workaround might be to use a staff with invisible staff lines and barlines and set it to 200% scale, but this doesn't quite work.

You've done a fair amount of what seems to me to be unnecessary adjustment. Like, the "bass drum" indication - why are you deviating form the default of left-aligning this? If it's because subjectively you like it offset to appear to the left of the note it applies to, don't accomplish that by manual adjustment do it by adjusting the style setting. One way to do this is to adjust one such marking manually then hit "Set as Style" in the Inspector.

The mid-measure repeat you added shouldn't have needed to be placed as a symbol - instead, you should simply add the barline directly to the staff and note you want it to, using the regular barline on the regular palette. There are some bugs associated with this, but it does work, and it doesn't affect layout when you do the manual adjustment in the same way that using a symbol does.

The vertical space for hairpins is currently fixed at 0.7sp, but in my PR to allow more customization of autoplace it will be possible to customize this setting. So you will be able to set that to 0sp or even a negative value to get a light overlap, while still retaining autoplace and with it the automatic avoidance of the dynamics on either end. meanwhile, you can avoid the extra vertical space without disabling autoplace by using a "staff spacer fixed". Advantage, again, being you still get the benefits of autoplace with respect to the dynamics.

Can you explain the intended meaning of the long horizontal bars int he middle of the staff? A text line with autoplace disabled is indeed a way, but if this is some sort of generalized recognize notation, we could consider supporting it directly.

The staff text you want directly on top of the staff does indeed require disabling autoplace, or at least setting a negative value for the min distance. But again, this is a handful texts in your entire score, compared to the dozens that are placed perfectly by default without you needing to touch them. So, less work to disable it individual where needed than to have off by default and have to do that much more adjustment where autoplace was actually helping.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Ok, thanks to you for all the comments! I learned many things that I wouldn't probably have discovered by myself.
If you can do these changes for removing autoplacement in a faster way it would be great. I personally would still give freedom of choice about having it or not so the software is more free. Anyway, maybe with time I will get more used to it and with this discussion I have already understood it better. About your other comments:
-Good to know that there is this possibility with the X letter, I hadn't realized it before and it solves many problems.
-Good to know also that I can do this with a normal line, this is something I didn't realize and it makes things much easier. Anyway with this kind of line I still need to remove autoplacement from the "15-20" text above, even with a negative value. But no problem about this.
-I can find ways to put the big time signature like this but they require some work. Attaching things to a time signature or also to a clef or barline is a good idea and could be helpful even in other cases. But in this case I think the best way would be to set these big time signatures as a possible default setting, since now there are many contemporary scores which use them. Sometimes they don't even write the normal time signatures in the staffs, but just the big ones above the main orchestral sections.
-Yes that's true, it wasn't necessary to change the position of the bass drum. But it's good to know that I can set it as style if I want.
-Ok I will try with the normal barlines, I didn't know I could attach them to a single note. I would find it more useful if the "end repeat" barline was put after the selected note and not before it like now. But I can also move it manually.
- Good to know that with a fixed staff spacer the staffs will keep the same distance. It's also a good idea to give more freedom of choice about the hairpins. Sometimes the placing of hairpins still makes me confused, especially when they are after each other in two different bars they are not always at the same level.
-The horizontal lines inside the staff are something I use to keep repeating a pattern when it goes out of a normal bar or metronome counting (for example to repeat it accelerando/rallentando/improvising, or as in this case to repeat it until the conductor gives the indication to go on). I guess they are not so common to find so I wouldn't say they are a generalized notation, I have seen them in few other composers when they give some material to improvise for a while. Anyway if I have a fast way to remove auto placement from the normal lines I can do them manually without problems.
I was also wondering if there is a way to copy and paste lines and hairpins from one note to another, like it is already possible to do with symbols and dynamics. When writing for orchestra it could be useful, especially when there are many parts which have the same kind of hairpins or lines, but until now I haven't found a way and I have to put them one by one.
-Ok I will try to get used to it by setting a negative value for the staff text.

In reply to by giovannizaniol

The issue of support large time signatures comes up often, hopefully at some point a good solution will be proposed and implemented.

Not sure what you mean about the end repeat, the whole point is you should attach it the first note after the repeat. Then you don't need to move it manually. Avoiding unnecessary manual adjustments by attaching things correctly is one of the keys to success here.

Hairpins are indeed not always at the same level since they may need to avoid different things. We do line them up in the context of a series of consecutive hairpin/dynamic/hairpin etc. If you want to force them to align even when not technically necessary, you can do this without disabling autoplace, and again, it's better if you don't.

For lines within the staff, what would be convenient would be if you could create one such line, add it to a custom palette as described in the Handook under "Custom palettes", and have the autoplace setting be retained. Unfortunately, while most other settings are retained, that one is not. This is worth filing a bug report on. Meanwhile, you can disable it via the Inspector, and if'wehn my PR gets merged, also via keyboard shortcut.

You can copy lines using the same technique as for creating custom palettes: Ctrl+Shift+drag. It "clones" the element and makes it just as if you were adding it anew from the palette.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Resizing time signatures like this is a good way, but I think there is still a limit that they can't be moved or resized horizontally without affecting the size of the bar. And also, if I want a time signature both above the staff and in the staff it is difficult to make it double. So even if there are ways to do it I also hope that one day there will be a default setting for it, which will also make this manual work not necessary.
About the lines, that's a great discover that I can copy or drag them to a palette with ctrl+shift+drag, it makes everything better!
I also understood better about repeat marks and hairpins. Is there a way to force hairpins to align or I have to do it by moving them manually?

In reply to by giovannizanio1

How exactly do you want them to align? They already do automatically if they are part of a consecutive series hairpin-dynamic-hairpin-dynamic etc. But if they are separated, then this doesn't happen by default. If you want to enforce this, you do need to do it manually, but it's pretty easy - just select the ones you want to align, use the spin box in the Inspector to increase the vertical offset off all simultaneously. The ones already lower than the other others (because they were avoiding a collision) will stay put until the others catch up. As soon as they do, stop adjusting.

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