Transposing for Tuba

• Apr 20, 2022 - 19:34

When transposing midi treble clef melody parts to bass clef - I can get the music transposed BUT I can't figure out how to get the music to display correctly for tuba - i.e. display Db instead of C#, Bb instead of A# - and so on. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.


Comments

Tuba doesn't typically transpose. But, it sounds like you are talking about something different anhyhow - enharmonic spelling. Unfortunately MIDI just has no notion of enharmonic spelling - Db and C# are the same pitch. So it's going to be the case that many accidentals are spelled differently than you'd want, and you'll have to correct them with "j". Assuming you got the key signature right, though, the notes actually in the key should already be spelled correctly.

So, my goal is to take treble clef melody track of music (from midi files with separate tracks) and CORRECTLY transpose to bass clef in the range for MOST non-professional tuba players (on bass clef staff and below AND convert all sharps to flats - correctly written student level tuba music for BBb tuba (the majority) seldom has sharps). Changing just instrument to "tuba" does not accomplish this. I do that - I "transpose" a full octive down - and I still get C# and A# rather than Db and Bb. I don't understand comment about using "j" - what does that mean? Any further help would be greatly appreciated.

In reply to by ntog

It's still not really clear what you mean here. Music can have both flats and sharps, and tuba is not different from other music in this respect. If the music has sharps when written for other instruments, it should have sharps for tuba as well. It would be totally wrong to make music that currently has sharps and then simply respell those sharps to flats, if those sharps were correct to begin with.

Now, it's possible you are saying you want the music in a different key - a key that is higher or lower than the original key, and that this different key might happen to have flats in its key signature. If so, simply use Tools / Transpose to transpose the music to that new key. It's still the case that accidentals in the key can sometimes be flats, sometimes sharps (and sometimes naturals) - tuba is not exempt from the rules of music notation. In the key of G minor, for instance, there are two flats in the key signature, but the leading tone is absolutely always spelled F#, never Gb.

If you continue to need help, please attach your score and describe what you are trying to do in more specific detail.

In reply to by ntog

Here's a simplified method that should work to correct all sharps to flats after you've copied the line into the bass clef staff.
Simply select the entire tuba line (beginning to end) and raise it 1/2 step with the up arrow. Then lower it back down 1/2 step with the down arrow.
Example. C# is raised to a D, then the D is lowered to Db = desired result

You wrote:
When transposing midi treble clef melody parts to bass clef... I can't figure out how to get the music to display correctly for tuba
and:
So, my goal is to take treble clef melody track of music (from midi files with separate tracks)...

Could you attach one of those treble clef melodies as it appears in MuseScore before you attempt your bass clef conversion?
Also let us know which tuba you prefer for that melody:
tubas.png
Because initially you wrote "tuba" and then later:
...correctly written student level tuba music for BBb tuba (the majority) seldom has sharps).
For clarity, do you mean B♭ tuba?

Thanks everyone for trying to help here. I feel like a philosopher, needing to define all the terms before I ask the question. Anyway, I haven't tried the "j" idea yet - though it does sound promising - and I would like to TRY to respond to other questions. So - in the USA the most common tuba is BBb (or perhaps jm6stringer prefers just Bb even though wiki refers to it as BBb). I'm not smart enough to understand the difference - and it seems unimportant to my intent - it seems a little like my use of the word "transpose" - I realize that the tuba is not a "transposing" instrument HOWEVER I am using the "transpose" feature of MUSESCORE to try to take a treble clef melody and make it playable for tuba (changing clef and dropping the notation an octive showing only flats - no sharps). With regard to Mr. Sabatella's comment - I don't know the "theory" but I do know that your view is not correct. Student tuba music for BBb (or Bb if you prefer) is NEVER written with sharps or any sharps in the key signature. I do realize some people score it that way (scores not used by elementary and high school bands) - but it makes it nearly impossible for a student to play and ALL the student charts are only written in flats - 1 to 4, sometimes 5. Now - terms defined - let's get to the crux: I'm attaching a sample file I've mostly recently been working on - a public domain midi file. If someone could describe the steps I should take to transpose ONLY the melody line to student level bass clef melody (using only 1 to 4 flats in key signature AND showing no sharps in the notation) - I would LOVE it.

Attachment Size
BABYFACE (1).midi 10.43 KB

In reply to by ntog

I guess I'm not understanding the problem here. Create a tuba staff. C+P the melody into it. Ctrl + down arrow to put it in the octave you want. Since there aren't that many sharps in the melody, manually change each one. Maybe some variation of " Select similar" from the staff properties window might help. Bb tuba isn't a transposing instrument, as such. Fingerings take care of it.

As to never using sharps in student tuba music. Let's think about this. Perhaps some publishers do this, but ask yourself, why. Sharps are hard to read? Really? And why just tuba? Don't trumpet players have the same problem. As a trumpet player with a music education degree in the USA, I can tell you this is news to me. Oh sure, we know that there is the belief that brass players might prefer to read flats instead of sharps. So what. Changing sharps to flats just for tuba players is illogical, and does the players a disservice.

In reply to by ntog

Thanks for the further clarification.

You wrote:
If someone could describe the steps I should take to transpose ONLY the melody line to student level bass clef melody (using only 1 to 4 flats in key signature...

Your attached midi is in the key of C major. There is no need to use any flats in the key signature, as tuba is non-transposing.
Also, I have attached this file:
Baby Face.mscz
which is a MuseScore (.mscz) file. (Simplified for students - the melody does not have those complicated note durations which result from the midi import.).
Please use this .mscz file and explain what key (how many flats in the key signature) you desire, if transposing the key.
Also, if you are only concerned with shifting notes by an octave (and retaining the C major key signature), instead of using transposition, you can press Ctrl + A to select all, then press Ctrl + up or down arrow to change the octave.

In reply to by Jm6stringer

Thank you so very much. Your explanation and especially the file was exactly what I needed. I now understand how to do it and why it is complicated. Now that I better understand the complications - I also realize I should have been more complete in the background of what I was trying to do. I've been converting treble clef midi melody lines to tuba - in a range that I can also sing because I use a looper to record my guitar playing and drumming with a stomp box - and I thought the seniors I entertain at assisted living residences would also enjoy hearing the melody on tuba which I can also play at an elementary level (since I only ever played tuba at student levels - I can only read tuba music without difficulty written in flats - and at 71 I'm really not interested/motivated to learning how to read it with sharps). In the case of this song - with the guidance I've gotten in this forum and from you - I was able to "transpose" this music to bass clef in the key of A which is where I play it on guitar (actually I play it in G with a capo on second fret because I like G chords better than A chords!)...and then I just used the CMD up/down arrow to reset sharps to flat. Thanks so much!

In reply to by ntog

FWIW, "BBb" tuba means the fundamental tone is the Bb an octave below that of other low Bb instruments like trombone.

The reason we needed more information is that the correect way to achieve the goal of fewer sharps depends on the context. We simply didn't know if the problem was the accidentals were wrong to begin with, or the kley was wrong, or they were correct and you simply wanted to change them to be incorrect. So thank you for providing the file you are asking about, it helps clarify.

I need to reiterate: it is simply not true that student music is never written with sharps. As I said, when sharps are musically necessary, they are absolutely written, ebcause writing music incorrectly is the surest way to confuse young students (and it does no favors for more experienced ones either). What is true is that beginning band music is most often written in flat keys, because that makes it easier for transposing instruments like saxophones. But as I said, even in flat keys, sharps will still appear where necessary. So that's why we needed to understand the context for the sharps you were asking about - to understand if it's correct to simply change their spelling, or if it would be necessary to change the key, to make it correct.

So, now that we have the file, we can see that your piece is in the key of C. Most of the sharps that appear are absolutely correct musically and should not be changed - if you leave the song in the key of C. But if the goal is to create music that is easier for very young students, you should transpose it to a a key like Bb. So, Ctrl+A to select all, then Tools / Transpose, then select the key of Bb or whatever other key you prefer. This will both transpose and respell everything to be correct - as correct as it was in the original anyhow. Unfortunately. MIDI is not a notation format and lacks information about spelling, so it requires AI algorithms within MuseScore to tyr to guess at the right spellings. It guessed right in almost all cases here, but indeed, that means some flats, some sharps. When you transpose to Bb, it will be almost all flats.

The bigger prolblem you will have also stems from this being a MIDI file - the rhythms are almost completely unreadable, because theis was nevcer intended to be converted to standard notation. So you're basically going to need to rewrite the melody entirely to make the rhythms simple enough to read.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Thanks to you also Marc -- the explanation I just wrote above explains what i'm up to - and how each of you helped me understand. It's been a learning curve for me - and I definitely should have explained better the complete story of what I was trying to do. I only ever had an elementary education in tuba - but picked it up again in retirement and have been enjoying playing it - but for sure I can only read music at an elementary level - and while my interest/passion continues in playing the tuba - I'm not sufficiently motivated to try to learn how to read all music - including tuba music with sharps and choose to play several instruments (drums, guitar, keyboard (chords and bass line rock 'n roll only) and all take effort and time. My current hobbies include playing tuba with an adult pep band (seldom a sharp there) and entertaining at senior centers (guitar, stomp box, leading sing alongs that also include some tuba melody. Thanks to you and everyone for teaching me how to use Musescore to make it way easier to get those melodies into my tuba range.

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