muse sounds, solo violin
Hi, when I try and use Musesounds solo violin sound, I get this weird glissy portamento effect.
So between one note and the next is a slide or glissando as if the violin only had one string, and was being played with one finger. To get around this I have to add a staccatto, or a dot on every note, which isn't what I want the score to look like.
The violin section sounds don't do this, so I am wondering if it is possible to get a normal, somewhat crisp violin articulation with out adding staccattos every where?
Thanks
Comments
@sevcikshifter wrote > MuseSounds solo violin sounds a weird glissy portamento effect.
So between one note and the next [it sounds] as if the violin only had one string, and was being played with one finger.
Thanks for your observations! I'm of a similar frame of mind.
NOTE: I think the term portamento best describes the sound heard ... or one could refer to it as "a poorly executed shift." Technically glissando is a rapid "slide" though distinct scale tones—or chromatic tones—with a pronounced but very brief pause-articulation at each. There's ongoing confusion about the two names, possibly because, in onomatopoeic terms, "gliss" implies "glidey."
Example score:
I tested Muse Sounds' Violin 1 (solo) on a piece I wrote. In doing so I definitely noticed a substantially excessive amount of the portamento effect described in the opening post.
I hear distinct unwanted portamento in my piece at Measure 9, 14, 15, and then a lot after Measure 18. Probably the only place I'd want a portamento slide is at measure 23, but there's no control for attenuating or omitting portamento where deemed appropriate.
Thoughts
I appreciate that—when applied intentionally and judiciously—Violin 1 (solo)'s portamento effect can add an impressive realism to MuseScore's violin playback. But violinists work tirelessly to perfect their shifting to eliminate inadvertent portamento. So when they apply portamento deliberately, for effect, it's not just anywhere and everywhere as with MuseSounds Solo Violin. And when portamento occurs unintentionally in performance it's usually very brief ... and appears mainly at the end or beginning of the shift, or both.
Additionally the amount that Violin 1 (solo) invokes is excessive in terms of:
a) the amount of pitch "slide"
b) the length of time devoted to the slide
c) that the portamento is essentially the default, particularly on high notes, or on notes with intervals greater than a minor 3rd.
That said, the Muse Sounds Solo strings are quite impressive. I'd just want to eliminate portamento as the default playback. And when I want it I should be able to control the portamento's extent and timing, as scorists could with MuseScore's bends in MuseScore 3.
I imagine this is all coming ...
scorster
https://musescore.com/user/35880724/scores/13703899
In reply to @ sevcikshifter [I tested… by scorster
The labels 1 and 2 don't refer to desks. 1 is a more "expressive" style than 2.
That said I don't refer to what 1 sounds like as "expressive". I refer to it as "slop". Sorry, but no respectable musician would play that way. That goes for all the 1 sounds.
In reply to The labels 1 and 2 don't… by bobjp
I absolutely agree, the violin 1 solo sounds like it is played on 1 string with 1 finger, and is completely inappropriate for all music, no matter how romantic it is.
I can hear the inappropriate portamento in some of the section string playing too.
Violin 2 is bearable, and I use it for all solo violin parts.
Amazingly, this complaint has been showing up for at least 1 year, yet nothing has been done about it.
In reply to I absolutely agree, the… by groovellous
Extending the range would also be great because they make 5 (or more) String Violins too.
In reply to I absolutely agree, the… by groovellous
It appears that this problem will not be resolved. I recently brought this problem up on the github help forum and the response was that this sound is working as intended and nothing needs to be done. Yikes!
https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/21791
In reply to It appears that this problem… by adavismusic89
@adavismusic89
Thanks for you well spoken Github post and the link.
scorster
In reply to It appears that this problem… by adavismusic89
I've started the search for an alternative sound font to use because Ms basic strings are so unpleasant, while musesound strings are just unusable.
In reply to It appears that this problem… by adavismusic89
This is mind-boggling. "The short answer is that the current portamento effects are by design." I'm a string player, Bachelor of Music in performance, and this sort of sound would Never be allowed in serious string playing.
In reply to This is mind-boggling. "The… by meferris7
So, don't use Solo Violin 1. Or Violins One. That's why there are two different sounds. There is a use for the solo 1 sound. I don't use it. The "2" sounds seem better for most things. I've tried 4 or 5 different fonts that really aren't any better.
In reply to So, don't use Solo Violin 1… by bobjp
But, the same portamento problems occur with the other string sounds. Also, using Violin 1 to designate a different style of playing is a bit confusing when other sound samples have a Violin 1 and Violin 2 sound to help differentiate the different parts in the score.
In reply to But, the same portamento… by adavismusic89
I set up a test score with lots of notes over a fifth apart. Solo 1 played portamento between almost every note. Solo 2 almost never did not. There really doesn't seem to be much reason to complain about solo 1. Some people might like it. I don't. So I use solo 2. If the developers are happy with the way solo 1 is, great. Why not.
In reply to I set up a test score with… by bobjp
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It doesn't matter if the notes are a fifth apart or a second. I've attached samples of some parts that are being performing on the Violin 2 Section, Violas Section, Violoncellos Section, and Contrabass Section fonts. All of the parts contain portamento at a point that should not be occurring (minor and Major 2nds). As a string player, I would be embarrassed and probably immediately fired if I played this way in rehearsal or performance.
In reply to We're going to have to agree… by adavismusic89
I came here to look for advice on what to use for a solo violin sound. I do find it hard to believe that anyone would accept violin 1 as a representation of violin playing; maybe as some weird electronic sound, but not as a violin. Violin 2 is much more acceptable, and so I’m glad to have learned to use that here.
In reply to We're going to have to agree… by adavismusic89
I suspect in many cases the portamento you hear are quite physically impossible (e.g. see https://musescore.com/user/7209246/scores/17318203/s/_7-mLa - I reported this in https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/22976/ )
I've attached a file that demonstrates the difference between "default playback" (excessive portamento, and a weird "chorus" effect), and "straight playback" (somewhat robotic, but nice and clean).
In both cases all notes are in Muse Strings Violin 1 solo.
So for my money, this could be fixed with some sort of playing technique annotation or sound flag that controls what output is sent to Muse Sampler so that if you want the "clean" sound, you can get it without resorting to using a second staff.
In reply to I've attached a file that… by Dylan Nicholson1
Interestingly enough, in 4.3, if you use the new Staff Text and set it to "expressivo", it cleans up much of the Violin 1 playback.
In reply to Interestingly enough, in 4.3… by bobjp
Yes, but that also prevents a number of articulations working too.
In reply to Yes, but that also prevents… by Dylan Nicholson1
That's unfortunate, but the sound with "espressivo" is still better than solo violin in soundfonts, which I have resorted to on occasion. I'll definitely be keeping this hack in my arsenal of weapons against dreadful solo violin sounds.
In reply to That's unfortunate, but the… by HRTlover
My "hack" is just to put alternate notes in a 2nd hidden staff (and turn off the play flag for those notes in the visible staff). You get a pretty decent sostenuto sound (not necessarily a true legato, but good enough).
Just adding myself to the list of people perplexed and annoyed by the weird default violin 1 sound
Regarding détaché, I think the best approach is to invent a specific symbol for it. Historically, it was interpreted by the musician, but with sound libraries, it's almost impossible to achieve the desired effect.
My problem with NotePerformer was quite the opposite. I had to fill the score with slurs to get the legato sound, and when the passage is long (such as in string harmony layers), it becomes incredibly cumbersome to manage.
As for staccato, it is not a rigid concept. From my experience, its duration is typically half the note's value. However, when using sound libraries, it becomes an instantaneous incident within the score.
Additionally, if the playback options for a note included more parameters than just velocity and tuning—specifically, if they included "duration"—it would be much more helpful and precise.
Maybe off topic for you guys, but I like the fiddle “sound” selection within the mixer ( not an instrument). It has a different articulation. Make a violin instrument, the select within the mixer, msbasic/world/fiddle.
In reply to Maybe off topic for you guys… by TDYama
I tried that, but I couldn't hear the difference between MS Basic "fiddle" and MS Basic "violin"
In reply to I tried that, but I couldn't… by HRTlover
I didn’t think about checking. I did just try and think there is a tiny difference but the fiddle may have less articulation, so is contrary to the goal of this thread. Whoops!
Validating your concern
https://musescore.com/user/10533076/scores/17734597
And yes, I have tried Solo Violin 2 and it wasn't any better (imagine how horrible the second movement sounds). Try your best to utilize various combinations of solo violin 2, solo violin 1, and all kinds of articulations. You can also make any unwanted clutter like repetitive articulations invisible with the "v" key. Other than that, there isn't much you can do.
In reply to Validating your concern… by BeatsKEI
How did you get the bow attack sound on every note, particularly in the fast passages? When I use musesounds with any string instrument, there is no attack and the sound of the note is actually delayed by a microsecond.
In reply to How did you get the bow… by HRTlover
One way would be to put an articulation ( staccato or accent) on each note and make them invisible.
In reply to How did you get the bow… by HRTlover
I put invisible staccatissimo articulation on most of the notes.
In reply to I put invisible… by BeatsKEI
Sure. and if you have two notes you what slurred, you don't put an articulation on them.
In reply to Sure. and if you have two… by bobjp
Are you stupid?
1) Slurs used to be purely visual. Them affecting playback is stupid.
2) Slurs to articulated notes absolutely exist.
3) Slurring two separate articulated notes for strings means to bow in the same direction like in Tchaikovsky's violin concerto, which I specifically chose because of this.
In reply to Are you stupid? 1) Slurs… by BeatsKEI
Sorry about your rudeness.
Please read what I wrote. I never said anything about the three things no noted.
In reply to Sorry about your rudeness… by bobjp
I had a feeling I misunderstood your last message since it wasn't written in English. The only thing I can think of is that you were accusing me of not utilizing articulation on slurred runs, which is also stupid because all articulations with unique playback besides accents make notes shorter. And accents just make everything punchy. Do you think I never tried to make the slurs sound tolerable?
In reply to I had a feeling I… by BeatsKEI
I didn't accuse anyone of anything. It was a general, passing observation. I did write in English.
In reply to Sure. and if you have two… by bobjp
bobjp said: "Sure. and if you have two notes you what slurred, you don't put an articulation on them."
I think what bobjp is saying is that he understands why the slides come back with slurs is because you didn't put staccatissimo on them for obvious reasons. I don't see any rudeness in his reply, and anyone who does needs to take a deep breath and realize all on this thread are wanting to solve a vexing problem, not abuse each other.
In reply to I put invisible… by BeatsKEI
How did you make the staccatissimo invisible? The only way I can think of to do that is to click on each individual dot and do something to it, but that would take hours to do.
In reply to How did you make the… by HRTlover
Click the first dot. Right click>Select>More>same staff. That will select all the dots. Then Hit "V". They will be grayed out. To not see them at all, go to View>Show>uncheck show invisible. Unless it is already cleared.
You could try switching the sounds for the violin to violin 2 solo via the mixer, the violin 2 solo still has a little bit of portamento but not to the extent that the pitch is affected.
A lot of misinformation given here. I can tell you as a fiddle player that here's the way music for violin is interpreted, as far as I know:
1) Notes not connected with a slur or tie are played as separate bow strokes. Whether or not they are accented or as any other bowed stroke articulation is done by separate articulation symbols. You can optionally specify the direction the bow using the two articulations given in the program for this purpose (hard to describe the symbols here). If bow direction is not specified it is up to player discretion.
2) Notes of the same pitch that are connected with a tie are played as a single note of the combined duration of the notes. Notes of different pitches that are connected with a tie ... I'm not sure that's "legal". I've never seen scores with that.
3) Notes of different pitches that are connected with a slur are to be played as fingered legato, that is, where each note is played with a different finger, but using one bow stroke. The notes sound "slurred together" with subtle transitions because they are not played with separate bow strokes.
4) (EDITED this part): Portamento is usually denoted with a straight line between the two notes. In a violin portamento, the same finger is used for both notes, which slides from the first note to the second.
This is the way MuseScore should be playing violin music. And it basically does if using one of the paid third party sounds, such as Berlin Strings first chairs, or CineSamples solo violin, etc. However, I've noticed that they sometimes sound more like portamento than fingered legato. But the violin 1 sound using MuseScore's own violin 1 is flat out wrongly played in my opinion, since all notes are seemingly played portamento. I just assume it is a bug.
UPDATE: MuseScore does not play violin portamento correctly at all, when notes are connected with a straight line, as MuseScore plays it as though a harp glissando, (as a series of notes going from the beginning note to the ending note), instead of a slide from beginning note to ending note. I think that's because it doesn't really have a straight line articulation without the "gliss." text accompanying it. Ironically, the portamento sound does come out if you use MuseScore's violin 1, but wrongly as just mentioned, because this only happens when individual notes aren't connected with the slur notation.