Hairpins doesn't work?

• Jun 14, 2015 - 19:13

Hi, Gang!!!

I'm uploading a file which has a dynamic variation using hairpins to create a crescendo effect into one long time note. But... It doesn't work!!!

My idea is the orchestra sound at full level up to the "mf" mark. Then the sound should be decreased. Then, at that long time note, the sound should be increased (inside the time of that whole note).

But... the result I got isn't that way. I just got the "mf" effect all the long time the whole note time and then, inmediately the whole note ends, the sound is at the superior level, not a progressive volumen change.

What I did wrong? ???

Please, the music piece is just a test. Please, it is intended only to test the dynamic marks. It isn't a serious final work.

Thank you so much for your time!!!!!!!

God bless you all!!!!!!!

Juan


Comments

Regrettably, that's a limitation of the current playback system: the volume can only change from note to note, not over the course of a single note.

In reply to by jotape1960

Actually, in the upcoming MuseScore 2.0.2, the "tr" ("trill" in English) will play back as a trill (or at least the version that's in the Articulations & Ornaments palette—hopefully the same thing will be implemented for the corresponding Lines in time). If you want to get a sneak preview, you can download a nightly build from https://musescore.org/en/download#Nightly-versions. (The hairpins will still be played the same way in 2.0.2, though.)

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I know I'm not a programmer and, of course, I don't know how much easy or hard is to change the MuseScore code, BUT... It is just a "Volumen" issue.

If MuseScore can "dominate" the general volumen through the included Mixer... Why it can't change the volumen inside the duration of a single note? ???

It isn't a pitch change. It isn't an instrument change. It isn't a SoundFont change. It isn't a complicated change at all!!! Just the volumen.

So... ? ???

In reply to by jotape1960

In fact it's rarely (if ever) true with acoustic instruments that a change in dynamic level simply produces a change in volume level alone. Of course, volume level does change when changing dynamic level, but acoustic instruments also change timbre (often quite significantly) at the same time. As I'm sure you know, most instruments sound much brighter (i.e. they include more high harmonic content) when playing loud than when playing quietly, and these harmonic levels usually change smoothly, gradually and continuously along with volume when changing dynamic levels over a held note. Not only that, but the attack characteristics of notes (especially those played by wind/brass instruments) can also change according to dynamic level.

Although Musescore uses velocity for fixed dynamic level markings such as pp, p, mf, f, ff etc., velocity alone is not sufficient for controlling playback of crescendo and diminuendo markings over a long note for the reason you mention (i.e. a velocity level is attached to the start of any given note and can not be changed during the course of that note - though it could be useful in controlling the attack envelope) BUT, neither is control of volume alone (because of the changes in timbre and attack mentioned above).

If it were to be implemented in Musescore, playback of crescendo and diminuendo marks over a long note obviously would require a continuous dynamic variation. I suggest that this would probably best be addressed with CC (continuous controller) messages, which can control more than one parameter at a time (e.g. volume + filter cutoff). In MIDI this is traditionally (though not necessarily) done with the "expression" parameter (CC11). Controlling volume alone is insufficient to produce anything approaching convincing playback of real instrument dynamics.

So, in Musescore, CC parameters could be used to help control the simulation of crescendo and diminuendo over long (held) notes by controlling volume and timbre simultaneously. However, in practice it's probably not that simple - using soundfonts, for example, those CC messages and velocity levels would need to be interpreted by the playback engine and changes in timbre/attack over held notes would need to be simulated either by (at the very least) changing the cutoff point of a filter in the playback engine smoothly (very important) and simultaneously along with the volume level on the same channel, or by using accurate multi-sampling with complex cross-fading and/or filtering as well. This would all need to be accurately controllable by the combination of velocity attached to the note plus the CC messages generated by your cresc./dim./ hairpin marks. I've no idea how much additional programming this would require in Musescore, but I suspect the developers currently have their hands full with bug-fixing issues more central to Musescore's stated priorites (i.e. creating high-quality readable notated music for human musicians to read).

I agree though, that it would be nice to have this feature at some point in the future...

In reply to by Xasman

Hi!!!

Thank you so much for your time and ideas!!!

And... Yes! You're so right about the fact that dynamics changes involve more than the volumen level changes... in the real world.

It is too noticeable with brass instruments.

But... (I insist I'm not a programmer), I can't see why the level change (that is the only thing I'm asking this time) should be too much complicated at all.

According to my very ignorant approach to the internal MuseScore gnome working, it uses the SoundFont digital samples to play the musical pieces, Right? ???

Then... it just has to learn how to change the volumen playback level, nothing more. And I think it is something relative to some internal (and digital) parameter, which, I bet, can be changed at any time, any way, any note (even the long notes).

So...

I'm not asking a full dynamics real world change because I assume it is absolutely impossible with the actual SoundFont files system (because I assume it is just a fixed sample collection of sounds)

I mean, for example, the trumpet sound is recorded just one time, at just one volumen and quality level, so we could change the level but the sound will be always the same but the volumen level.

I assume the real world dynamic changes have some kind of harmonics distortion which "adulterate" the original sound. The only one way to get it with the today MIDI SoundFont system would be recording a lot of samples from every of the instruments recorded on each SoundFont file. But it would need a new MIDI instruments implementation and definition and I doubt about the industry will be happy with this change. Hahahaha!!!

Anyway, I will be waiting about some MuseScore future change about this item.

Blessings!!!

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

Many if not most soundfonts do, yes. But it's normally all keyed to the initial velocity: a note sounded at velocity 48, uses one sample sounded at 96 uses a different one, but if you start a note at 48 then increase the volume through use of a controller, it won't necessarily change from one sample to the other, and unless it could vary the sound continuously, it would sound very artificial if it did suddenly switch mid-stream.

In reply to by jotape1960

"just has to learn how to change the volumen playback level, nothing more" - yes, and that uses a totally different technique than anything else used in MuseScore. We simply don't have support the controller messages that would be necessary to do this. It's not impossible, obviously, but again, if it were easy, it would have been done long ago.

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