Feature request
Wouldn't it be better if one could select a whole soprano line and just push the blue square 1 button that denotes Voice 1 in order to have all of the selected notes turn blue and automatically shift their tails up?
I have a soprano line that I copied into a piano score that has 2 staves and I would just like all of it's tails to go up so I can introduce the mezzosoprano line as the second voice.
I believe this would be an easier way of doing voice stuff.
Thanks!
Comments
You will find this happens automagically as you start entering voice 2 :)
In reply to You will find this happens by ChurchOrganist
How DO I start entering the 2nd voice?
In reply to How DO I start entering the by tonyjustme
Click N to enter note entry mode then the green square.
It doesn't work if you click the green square first.
In reply to Click N to enter note entry by ChurchOrganist
Oh, so that's the order? OK!
You can probably tell it's the first time I'm working with all 4 voices in MuseScore.
In reply to Oh, so that's the order? by tonyjustme
Here's the manual entry:-
http://musescore.org/en/handbook/voices
In reply to Here's the manual by ChurchOrganist
ChurchOrganist, yet again, people are not getting what I'm trying to get across.
I know how to manually enter note by note voices, but my problem is that I can not copy-paste the whole 2nd voice in so I save loads of time.
These things are so inherent I'm amazed the point didn't get across yet.
The manual entry doesn't help at all.
This is probably a new feature that needs to be implemented.
In reply to ChurchOrganist, yet again, by tonyjustme
Yeah - it's 'cos you asked how to enter Voice 2
Copying and pasting is different.
But then presumably English isn't your first language, so no worries. :)
Hope my later post on how to copy and paste helped.
I think there is a tutorial vid by Katie on how to do this - will try to find it for you.
In reply to Yeah - it's 'cos you asked by ChurchOrganist
Well, that IS what I wanted to know how to do, it's just that I think that so far there isn't any good way of doing that as in copy pasting a whole line into that.
When I said enter Voice 2 I was refering to copy pasting stuff, sorry for not being clear enough.
I still have not found how to do what I want to do.
Or for example how do I "assign" the soprano line I just pasted in the top piano stave asd the 1st voice?
I believe if it would truly be 1st voice, then all of it's tails should go up, and I just pasted that and the tails are not all up.
In reply to Or for example how do I by tonyjustme
The first notes you enter on a stave default to voice one unless you specify otherwise.
Whatever voice you enter will have tails up and down if there are no other voices on that stave.
As soon as you enter another voice they will flip to the correct up/down position as set in preferences.
HTH
Michael
In reply to The first notes you enter on by ChurchOrganist
What I'm trying to achieve is copy paste 4 different SMTB staves into 2 piano staves.
I have already easily copied the soprano voice as voice 1 and am now trying to copy the mezzosoprano voice as the second one with tails down, I would REALLY hate to have to enter all of those notes one by one, I'd much rather copy paste the voices.
How do I do that?
In reply to What I'm trying to achieve is by tonyjustme
Select the mezzo part and move it into Voice 2 (Edit>Voices>Exchange Voice 1-2)
Copy the mezzo part and paste it into the Sop stave
You should now have 2 voices on the Soprano stave - the Soprano in Voice 1 and the MEzzo in voice 2.
HTH
Michael
In reply to Select the mezzo part and by ChurchOrganist
See, that's the problem, this is yet an other counter-intuitiveness issue.
I entered that Soprano line as the 1st voice, right? If I follow your instructions, my Soprano voice will become 2nd.
See the problem?
I want a button that allows me to select the entire soprano line and truly assign it as being voice 1 in blue and automatically makes all tails go up, and then create rests undernieth that in which I can copy paste my mezzosoprano voice.
This MUST have been created by germans, they has SO MANY counter-intuitive things in their language, like for example the sun is of feminin gender in german, and the moon is of male gender in english.
Also, their numbers are said in reverse and when they fill forms they start with the last bracket of the form writing everything from the end to the beggining as if it wouldn't be the same thing if they'd start from the first bracket.
I hate that I ever learned german by hosting a german missionary family for 1 year in my parents house, it messes up my brain...
In reply to See, that's the problem, this by tonyjustme
Well I find a male moon and a femal sun very intuitive, in french it is the other way round and, to me, this is completly illogical.
I do agree though that the German numbering (ones before tens but after hundreds, thousands, etc) is a bad idea. Share, BTW, by Arab...
And Werner, the orginal creator of MuseScore, is indeed German.
I see no reason for you though to offend Germans!
In reply to Well I find a male moon and a by Jojo-Schmitz
I'm not being offensive, I'm just listing facts, expressing what I feel without neccesarily directing it to any specific group.
If they take up offense, that is their problem, these ARE the facts of their language that I also happen to speak and write, and, truth be said, there are loads of discrepancies in their language that just mess up my latin brain that speaks Romanian, English and German in that order with tid bits of french, italian, spanish and hungarian.
In reply to I'm not being offensive, I'm by tonyjustme
Whether yo meant to be offensive or not: you've been received as such.
Yes there are discrepancies between languages, but that doesn't mean that one is superior to another, not that their speakers create counter-intuitive software. And that is what you indeed said
In reply to Whether yo meant to be by Jojo-Schmitz
As the language of one people is, so are the people, that is inherent fact.
I did allude to the fact that some things can be created counter-intuitive due to the language spoken, and there's no wrong in that.
Think of arabs and people who write from right to left and how THEY view software, now isn't THAT counter-intuitive?
I've seen messed up remote controls that I couldn't figure out for the life of me due to their counteintuitive design.
Not only is it a problem that things should either be all to the right or all to the left, the bigger problem is that one sometimes has all things to the left AND with stuff going to the right inside it... I'm speaking design wise...
In reply to As the language of one people by tonyjustme
This example (arab, writing right-to-left) is a perfect evidence that intuitivness (?) is in the eye of the beholder. I bet they find it counter-intuitive to do it the other way round.
Intuition comes from experience. Not from language, but that might well have an influence.
Your experience seems to come from years of using Sibelius. Mine comes from beinge a MuseScore user from the start of my 'transcribing career'. Other come from Finale. Or Capella (just to name another produce, a German on at that)
My intuition isn't better than yours or enaone elses and vice versa, just possibly different.
In reply to This example (arab, writing by Jojo-Schmitz
Well, we all write and read from the left to the right, don't we?
You know what annoying counterintuitiveness would look like in this setting?
Me starting to write something from the left to the right, and then switch direction back towards the left, and then back to the right some more, and so on so forth.
The same thing goes for the right to left writing and reading people.
This is what Bach used to do with fugue themes, if I recall right it was called mirrored recurrence.
But still, I would argue that intuitiveness is NOT in the eye of the beholder when it comes to ease of use in software.
A rule of thumb would be, the less clicks in doing a task, the better everything is!
Ask web developers, they know what I'm talking about!
In reply to Well, we all write and read by tonyjustme
Well, we don't. I do, I guess you do, but other MuseScore users don't. There is an Arab and a Hebrew version, both right-to-left languages. There is not the one universal mindset...
In reply to Well, we don't. I do, I guess by Jojo-Schmitz
There IS one universal mindset: "as less clicks as possible means a lot better!"
Serious web developers across the planet agree to this.
Please do read the other definition of what I wanted to say, it's not merely a problem of: "left-to-right" or "right-to-left" but it's a problem of "direction shifts inside that frame", that would be a better expression of the concept I was trying to get across.
In reply to There IS one universal by tonyjustme
I agree on the mousclicks, but, well, you claimed right-lo-left langiueges and a male moon to be counter-intuitive.
Not everything you find intuitive in Music Nitaion Software (to get back to topic) indeed is intuitive to everyone or even a majority.
In reply to I agree on the mousclicks, by Jojo-Schmitz
Well, I was probably trying to express the concept of easier to use.
For me, a male moon is SO counter-intuitive... my head hurts just when I think of it...
In reply to Well, I was probably trying by tonyjustme
Well, a moon is cold and doesn't shine by itself, every woman would find that intuitiv ;-)
In reply to Well, a moon is cold and by Jojo-Schmitz
Then why would a hot sun be male? :D
In reply to Then why would a hot sun be by tonyjustme
It isn't, not in German ;-)
In reply to See, that's the problem, this by tonyjustme
Found it :)
http://musescore.org/en/node/12345
Personally I find it quite intuitive as I came to MuseScore from Finale and that is how Finale handles voice assignment too.
But if you remember that any part you enter into a stave is automatically assigned to Voice 1 unless you assign differently there should be no problem.
Presumably the problems you are having are due to the workflow system being slightly different from Sibelius.
Once you get your head round them though, I think you'll find MuseScore's workflow systems are as good if not better.
OTOH you could always pay out £459 for the latest Sibelius :)
Regards
Michael
In reply to Found it by ChurchOrganist
I have already seen that previously, and I consider the method as not being good enough.
The method I suggested is a lot better, it doesn't change, it assigns.
The problem with "any part I enter into a stave is automatically assigned to Voice 1" is that the only way for me to copy paste a whole 2nd voice undernieth that is to turn that supposed "voice 1" into voice 2, and than paste the soprano on the rests above.
The easier way would be if I would have a button to REALLY assign as Voice 1 the line that I entered in the stave and have that command automatically create voice number 2s rests undernieth it so I can paste the mezzosoprano undernieth it.
It makes more sense, doesn't it? I mean, it treats things clearly from top down from the viewpoint of a choir score.
Hey ChurchOrganist, I found out that the only way for this to work by the possibilities of MuseScore as of now is for me to enter the Mezzosoprano first in the empty stave, assign THAT as Voice 1 to 2 and only THEN paste the soprano on top which is so much work and is yet again unintuitive because it's doing things the other way around.
I would like to be able to do things right from top down, soprano first and then mezzo and so on so forth.
There just HAS to be an easier way of doing this!
All 6 instructions from the "Modify-Voices" could be reduced to 4 if their functions would start with: "ASSIGN as voice 1, ASSIGN as voice 2, ASSIGN as voice 3, ASSIGN as voice 4".
I think this is what one would call arbitrary or imperative code commands.
This is a LOT easier and more intuitive than the function to "CHANGE" a a voice from the other, because, this way, you guys don't have all the variables layed out, this would also require everything the other way around as in "Change voice 2-1" " Change voice 3-2" "Change voice 4-3" and so on so forth.
In reply to Hey ChurchOrganist, I found by tonyjustme
You haven't quite grasped the procedure.
You can use the Exchange Voice on one stave at a time - it only operates on selected notes.
So if you select the mezzo stave and choose Exchange Voice 1-2, only the Mezzo part will be affected, the Soprano stave will be unaffected.
However, now that you have the Mezzo part in voice 2 you can paste it into the Soprano stave to give the Soprano in Voice 1 and the Mezzo in Voice 2 on that stave.
Delete the mezzo stave and you now have the Soprano and Mezzo parts in closed score format.
HTH
Michael
In reply to You haven't quite grasped the by ChurchOrganist
Ooops - slight correction.
You need to copy the soprano into the Mezzo if you do it that way round!
In reply to Ooops - slight by ChurchOrganist
Read my last post again, you seem to not be getting what I actually want.
The current way things are requires me to do all of this in an unintuitive way.
See how much work I have to do?
If those 6 commands from the Voice drop-down menu would do "Assign as Voice 1/2/3/4" everything would be a LOT clearer!
A developer has to have a look at this, they'd understand this better.
In reply to Read my last post again, you by tonyjustme
Because sometimes you want to move around more than one voice at a time.
If you select bars with say 3 voices in and you want to exchange voice 1 with voice 4 - in your system all 3 voices would end up as voice 4 - which would probably cause a crash due to durations not being compatible.
And it is a perfectly intuitive procedure for me - more so than Finale's variation on it!
The developers are not likely to make a major change to the UI just because one person doesn't like the way it works.
If you don't like it pay for Sibelius 7!
In reply to Because sometimes you want to by ChurchOrganist
I already expressed my outspoken passion for MuseScore and will obviously not pay for Sibelius 7, which is why I'm providing feedback for this.
I will probably take some time and reword all of this clearer so it can be understood better.
This is what I tried to do, take a whole soprano score and paste it directly to the first voice in the piano score with tails up, then take the mezzosoprano score and paste it to voice number 2 then take the tenor and paste it to voice 3 in the second stave of the piano score and then take the bass and paste it to voice number 4.
Am I getting my point across clear enough that I'm trying to do this from a top down order which would be a lot easier than intermingling voices? I mean, there really isn't a Voice 1 when I enter a soprano line into the piano top stave, as if it would have been Voice 1 it would have all it's tails up and rests for the 2nd voice undernieth. The previous setting would be something like voice 0 because it has tails going both up and down...
Am I expressing myself clear enough here, or is what I'm writing really hard to understand?
In reply to I already expressed my by tonyjustme
Your soprano is voice 1 by default. Just because the stems don't all point up doesn't mean it isn't already voice 1. You seem to be imagining there is such a thing as entering notes that are not in any voice, but that's not true. All notes are entered in voice 1 by default. It's just that MuseScore - just like Sibelius, and also just like Finale - is smart enough to only point the stems up if thee is also something in voice 2.
In reply to Your soprano is voice 1 by by Marc Sabatella
I'm trying to say that it's not voice 1 as in the 1-2-3-4 case, I did say it something like voice 0, or, it's a voice with different properties.
The problem is that I can't copy paste voice 2 undernieth voice 1, that's the problem, that's why I'm saying it's not that much of a voice 1 for me, it's like a standalone voice.
Only AFTER I select it to be blue and with tails up is it truly going to be voice one, that's what I'm trying to say.
In reply to Because sometimes you want to by ChurchOrganist
In regards to scores with only 3 voices then, the feature should obviously not show the "Assign voice 1 to 4" as there is no voice 4.
In reply to Ooops - slight by ChurchOrganist
I know, which is exactly what I DIDN'T want to do...
I wanted to copy the Soprano directly in the Soprano or at least be able to ASSIGN it as a real 1st voice soprano on the stave and then be able to directly paste the Mezzo undernieth it.
In reply to I know, which is exactly what by tonyjustme
The problem with that is that there is no such thing as a part that contains voice 2 only. Your Mezzosoprano part, whether entered directoy onto voice 2 or first entered pnto voice 1 and then moved to voice 2, will also contain rests in voice 1, because MuseScore insists on voice 1 always being fully accounted for.
So with that in mind, it makes complete sense that pasting the mezzo line onto the soprano line would clobber the existing soprano line by default, since the mezzo line has both a voice 1 and a voice 2. I do think some additional options to allow individual voices to be copied and pasted would be very nice, though. That would provide an additional way to accomplish this. But it wouldn't be any simpler - just different.
As for being simple, copying the soprano line - which is voice 1 only already (no need to press anything to make that happen) - onto the mezzo line will do exactly what you want. I don't see how it could possibly be any fewer clicks:
1. Enter soprano line normally - which is to say, onto voice 1
2. Enter mezzo line normally - again, onto voice 1
3. Move mezzo line to voice 2
4. Copy soprano line
5. Paste onto mezzo line
You can of course also enter your mezzo line directly onto voice 2, but I find hat more work, as MuseScore keeps switching back to voice 1 each time you leave note entry mode. So I think the above method is easier. And like I said, I don't see how it could possibly be accomplished in any fewer clicks. Even if it were possible to copy and paste just voice 2, you'd still be doing these exact same steps, except that steps 4 and 5 would be essentially reversed. No easier, just different.
In reply to The problem with that is that by Marc Sabatella
There always is a better way Marc, let the developers decide.
I have already stated what the easier way would be.
Your step 1 and 2 do not work for me Marco, because I want to directly copy paste post the top soprano line and the lower mezzosoprano line, not do so much cross-copying...
This is very time consuming Marc, especially at huge scores, and this is not only about choir scores, any inefficiency is subject to the same scalable laws as efficiencies are.
Just try the Sibelius demo and you will see how easy that is to use, or at least, look at the videos.
In reply to There always is a better way by tonyjustme
??? You never listed any exact step by step proposed method. Give it a shot, but I'm betting then if you count clicks, you'll find it is no more efficient. Hard to imagine how it *could* be any more efficient.
Which step of the one I listed do you imagine to be time consuming? Each is only one or two clicks.