Legality of Transcribing a Poor Quality Score
I have been listening to Hubert Parry's 5th Symphony and downloaded the "pocket" score off IMSLP.
As Parry died in 1918, the copyright would have ended in 1988.
The work is available to hire, but would I be allowed to make a new transcript, probably for my own use by a local orchestra?
Having said that, would I be allowed to hire it out anyway?
I don't want to start out on a major task, only for it to be futile and unable to be used.
Thanks
Comments
IMSLP #168432 is marked as copyright Public Domain, so you certainly can transcribe it - and print score and parts.
In reply to IMSLP #168432 is marked as… by DanielR
As long as there aren't newer versions of it.
In reply to As long as there aren't… by bobjp
Imslp info about what is Public Domain: https://imslp.org/wiki/Public_domain
Reprints of Public Domain scores are not considered copyrightable.
As it is Public domain, you can do whatever you want with it. You can hire it out if you want. But it would not be copyrighted.
Why not consider publishing to imslp instead?
In reply to As long as there aren't… by bobjp
"As long as there aren't newer versions of it. "
Sorry, but that is simply incorrect.
As long as transcribers use a Public Domain score as their sole source, they can publish, print, distribute and perform their transcription as public domain.
The existence of later editions of the same work simply has no bearing on the matter.
In reply to "As long as there aren't… by DanielR
"As long as transcribers use a Public Domain score as their sole source, they can publish, print, distribute and perform their transcription as public domain."
True enough. But I'm not talking about that scenario.
"The existence of later editions of the same work simply has no bearing on the matter."
It might if the publisher of the later edition thinks I copied their work. How do I prove I didn't? Although I realize that anything I say is probably unimportant.
In reply to "As long as transcribers use… by bobjp
"It might if the publisher of the later edition thinks I copied their work. How do I prove I didn't?"
Well, the OpenScore project faces exactly this problem. If you check out File > Project properties of scores uploaded to the OpenScore Lieder Corpus, you will find a reference to the IMSLP Public Domain reference number stored in the Arranger field. For example:
![OpenScore_Creative_Commons_public_domain_copyright.jpg]( "OpenScore_Creative_Commons_public_domain_copyright.jpg")
Link to the OpenScore Lieder Corpus scores (over 1,300 Public Domain songs):
https://musescore.com/openscore-lieder-corpus/sets
In reply to "It might if the publisher… by DanielR
OTOH the defendant doesn't need to prove innocence...
(in any decent legislation)
In reply to "It might if the publisher… by DanielR
I'm just thinking out loud. Asking the questions. I'm not interested in this kind of work. For me, I'd rather just buy a modern transcription and maybe support the music business. Maybe.
In reply to "It might if the publisher… by DanielR
IMHO, CC0 is not the same as Public Domain.
https://creativecommons.org/public-domain/cc0/
Using CC0
Unlike the Public Domain Mark, CC0 should not be used to mark works already free of known copyright and database restrictions
In reply to IMHO, cc0 is not the same as… by graffesmusic
Public Domain happens automagically 70 years after the composer's death, CC0 is something the composer sets at lifetime
In reply to IMHO, cc0 is not the same as… by graffesmusic
@graffesmusic wrote in https://musescore.org/en/node/355266#comment-1210246 :
"MHO, CC0 is not the same as Public Domain."
That's an interesting post, and I would be glad for a response from @shoogle about this copyright question. Currently the copyright text recommended for all OpenScore editions is OpenScore (CC0).
You might consider being able to prove where you got it. There are modern publishers that have this music available.
In reply to You might consider being… by bobjp
See the IMSLP link above.
I am not a lawyer.
But i am pretty sure Public Domain scores are Public Domain. No matter what publishers have available - unless those new publications are arrangements.
IMSLP is filled with recent reprints of Public Domain scores.
In reply to See the IMSLP link above. I… by graffesmusic
None of that is what I'm talking about.
All I'm saying is that if I produce something from a public domain score, I might need to be able to demonstrate that fact. A music publisher who might have a copyrighted version of the same piece might think I based my score on their score instead of the PD score. Probably doesn't happen often. But you never know.
In reply to None of that is what I'm… by bobjp
A piece is in the Public Domain or not. A publisher cannot have a 'copyrighted version' of a score in the Public Domain. (unless it is an arrangement)
One cannot copyright something in the Public Domain.
In reply to A piece is in the Public… by graffesmusic
We may be talking about two different things. Obviously, anything on IMSLP is PD. I think that means their copies. But I suspect there are others. In the case of the above piece, there is a published 2014 version. You can bet that there is a copyright on it. It might say it's an arrangement. Yet it has to be as accurate as possible for anyone to buy it. Find a recent copy of a Bach 2 part invention and see what it says.
In reply to We may be talking about two… by bobjp
"Obviously, anything on IMSLP is PD"
Incorrect. Not all IMSLP scores are marked as Public Domain.
Many score editions which have been edited from a PD score, then published and uploaded to IMSLP by a living editor have Creative Commons copyright terms. For example:
- CC Zero = No restrictions (dedicated to the public domain)
- CC-BY = Must include attribution
- CC-BY-SA = Must include attribution and Must share alike
There is an IMSLP web page about copyright titled "IMSLP:Licensing Policy and Guidelines":
https://imslp.org/wiki/IMSLP:Licensing_Policy_and_Guidelines
Look for the section headed Recommended licenses, simplified.
In reply to "Obviously, anything on… by DanielR
AND it depends on your location. Something PD in Canada is not necessary PD in EU or US.
In reply to AND it depends on your… by graffesmusic
Related hypothetical question: if one buys a printed score of an orchestral work, not in the Public Domain, can he extract manually separate parts for every instrument and use them in a performance in his own orchestra? (Isn't this is how it was done in the past in some cases: orchestras had copyist to extract parts from scores when no parts were available?).
In reply to Related hypothetical… by graffesmusic
It can depend on the publisher. I'm not sure you can buy just the score. Most come as score and parts. If you later loose the oboe part, you have to buy a new one.
In reply to It can depend on the… by bobjp
Sure, if parts are on sale.
But sometimes one cannot buy the parts, as they are on hire only.
e.g. Shostakovish parts are only on hire, and are even handwritten, AFAIK
If this is not allowed, what is the use of buying a score (other than study)
In reply to Sure, if parts are on sale… by graffesmusic
It is at the discretion of the copyright holder whether and what (s)he puts on sale and what on hire and at what price
It is at your discretion to accept that price and conditions, or not use the copyrighted material at all
In reply to It is at the discretion of… by Jojo-Schmitz
That is what i thought. Thanks
In reply to "Obviously, anything on… by DanielR
You're right, Daniel. I misspoke. Sometimes my grumpy old man persona sneaks out.
In reply to You're right, Daniel. I… by bobjp
"Sometimes my grumpy old man persona sneaks out."
I share your problem. At 76 years old, I tend to get impatient with "everyone else" ;-)
In reply to "Sometimes my grumpy old man… by DanielR
Not a matter of age, not for me at least ;-)
Thank you to everyone who has replied. I may give this a go and do a proper decent copy.
I'm sure that those who appreciate Parry's work would welcome your efforts.
Public-domain materials are often used as the basis of subsequent copyrighted works, if they were the inspiration or foundation to which another author then creatively added. Barry Manilow, for example, wrote a well-known tune that began and ended with a classical work which he carefully acknowledged. But what he improvised in the middle section belonged to him. Another author based his work (extremely closely) on a piece by Rachmaninoff which he THOUGHT was public domain – but it wasn't. So, Mr. Rachmaninoff's estate received a portion of the royalties from a commercial hit!