Maintaining tempo over time signature change
I'm transcribing a baroque era piece, and the final movement switches between 6/8 and 3/8 time. When Musescore plays it back, the 3/8 sections are double timed. Presumably this is because the initial tempo is counting the 6/8 in 2 and the dotted quarter is getting the beat, and then attempting to maintain that into the 3/8. Having played it a couple of times, and since both time signatures have frequent groupings of 3 1/8 notes, I think the composer intended the 1/8 note tempo to stay the same.
Okay, I had one more idea while typing this, and using the rallentando and accelerando on the measures before the time signature changes gets me closer in playback to what I'm looking for - I think I can tweak them in the properties option to get the tempos to sound the same.
This still leaves me with the question of is there a way to work out metronome markings for this?
It seems like using a metronome marking over each section would be the fastest way to resolve the problem. This is the second time I've had a drastic tempo change happen when going from 6/8 to 3/8, so I'll probably run into it again. It would be nice to have a solution available instead of randomly trying different things.
Also, the 3/8 sections have pickups that don't resolve correctly - would that have anything to do with the tempo problem?
One more question I've just thought of - I will be playing this duet with a friend, so would it be 'correct' to hide the rall. and accel. markings? Should I add some explanatory text at those places? Or is there actually a tempo change going on and I'm just not understanding it?
I've attached my score - the problem is in the final movement, starting on page 6.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Riggieri Op 3 Duet 4.mscz | 159.95 KB |
Comments
Well, if the 6/8 is counting time by dotted eighths, the 3/8 should be doing exactly the same. You do not want to use rall. or accel. to "fiddle" your timing; you want it to have the right timing and use rall. or accel. only for their intended purposes: i.e., to change to a new tempo.
I'm not seeing anything wrong in the score, but I'm almost certainly missing something. Anyone else???
In reply to Well, if the 6/8 is counting… by TheHutch
You're absolutely right, I don't like using the rall. and accel. that way, it was just an idea to solve the playback problem, since I'd been unable to work it out with any of the correct things, like metronome markings.
It sounds to me like MuseScore is keeping the dotted quarter note at the same tempo. The problem is that the style of the music completely changes at the 3/8 sections. I think if I were playing this, I would put a hold over the last note before the 3/8 and a slight pause after it. That way you can tell that the next notes are a pick-up into the 3/8 section. Then the same to get back into 6/8.
In reply to It sounds to me like… by bobjp
Thanks, that's what I thought was happening, I guess I just didn't say it well. I'll give that a try, and see what happens. I'm also thinking of ways to correct the unresolved pickup measures - mainly because now that I've noticed it it bugs me, but I have some ideas that might help the transition as well.
In reply to Thanks, that's what I… by Mandolinist3
The problem is that MuseScore will play this as one piece. Not two movements. If you are talking about measure 39, I think I would make that a dotted half note with a hold over it. Then a caesura after that you define a length for.
And in the next section, set a slower tempo for the 3/8 parts.
In reply to The problem is that… by bobjp
I'm a little confused about what you mean by movements. The duet itself has 3 movements, and by using the Section Break from the Layout options, a pause is inserted between movements. My problem is in the final movement, the Giga Allegro which switches between 6/8 and 3/8 on pages 6-8.
Even though the piece isn't ending, and there is no indication in the original of a tempo change, MuseScore's method for playback made it sound like the 3/8 sections were double timed, even though the BPM marking in the playback bar stayed the same. However, halving the BPM made it too slow, and I started experimenting with the other tempo options, and through trial and error, I have more or less found a solution.
For anyone interested, the tempo does need to change between the 6/8 and 3/8 sections to make them sound like (roughly) the same tempo. First, I figured out the BPM for the dotted quarter in the 6/8 sections based on the quarter note BPM value that MuseScore displays on the playback bar. That got me 96 for the dotted quarter. Then I took the quarter note BPM that resulted from using the rallentando at the 3/8 sections, a little more math, adjusting to standard metronome markings, and came up with 66 for the dotted quarter in the 3/8 sections. Once I had the metronome markings, I removed the rall. and accel. markings and put in "dotted quarter note = tempo" over the time signature changes.
Playback still isn't exactly how I want, but it should suffice for playing with my friend, and I won't have to spend 15 minutes explaining how to transition into the time signature changes.
It seems like there must be some sort of formula or rule of thumb for dealing with this instead of trial and (much) error. If anyone knows, I'm all ears!
In reply to I'm a little confused about… by Mandolinist3
MuseScore does not change the tempo over a change of time signature.
Test this by setting one time signature at the beginning. Then copy steady repeating notes (e.g. repeated eighth notes ascending and descending over an octave or two scale). Change the time signature in the middle and add a few more sets of the repeating notes. Hit Play and close your eyes. You will not be able to tell when the time signature changes because it doesn't change the tempo of a given note duration.
If your score is actually changing tempo over that 6/8 to 3/8 change then something is wrong with a) the score (probably), or b) your installation of MuseScore (much less likely).
In reply to MuseScore does not change… by TheHutch
It took me a while to get back to this. You are correct, the apparent double timing is due to the 16th notes in the 3/8 parts. I'm still not sure how to solve this for playback and performance purposes, but I do understand that it's not a MuseScore or transcription error. Thanks for all the help!
In reply to It took me a while to get… by Mandolinist3
Oh, I thought you had resolved it by explicitly changing the tempo at the change in style (the change in time signature).
If 'twere me, I would set the tempo in both parts to [dotted quarter] = tempo. Then I would set the part with the 16th notes to a lower number. I would explicitly NOT want the two sections played at the same tempo because of the different styles. I would put SOME kind of slowdown (e.g., rit., rall., or fermata) in the measure or two before the change. (I thought that's what you said you had done?) Then I would discuss with the other player how fast the two sections should be. One of the great things about MuseScore (and similar applications) is that you can easily change the two values to hear how it will sound with different values.
You said that you set the first to 96 and the second to 66. That's a fairly sharp difference. I think I'd go with a change more along the lines of 96 to 75 or 80 (or thereabouts). This is strictly an artistic difference, so the only people whose opinions matter are yours and the other musician's.