Two other music accidentals. Iranian Accidentals.
Hi
In general we have flat, sharp and natural in music.
But in Iran we have two other signs beside flat, sharp and natural.
We call them " Sori " and " Koron ".
Koron symbol lowers a note by a Quarter step. Take a look at wikipedia to see the symbol koron:
http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DA%A9%D8%B1%D9%86
Sori symbol raises a note by a Quarter tone. And wikipedia:
http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B3%D8%B1%DB%8C_%28%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B3%D…
Actually these signs are used in Iran to indicate notes. This kind of notation method is not common in Europe but most of Iranian musicians use these two beside flat,sharp and natural.
I think it would be very good and efficient to put these two Iranian signs into musescore.
The use of these signs is as simple as flat,sharp and natural.
But of course the sound we hear is lower or higher.
Comments
and how should they be placed relative to the lines of the staff?
Adding the graphics to the accidentals palette should be fairly easy. But I'm not sure what it would take to make them play back correctly.
-- J.S.
In reply to Those are interesting symbols. How big should they be, by John Sprung
My understanding is that playback is limited to the 128 notes available in MIDI - in other
words the Western well-tempered scale. By all means use Musecore to typeset the score,
but the playback won't be possible because of the "microtuning" required.
In reply to Different scale by ozcaveman
if your module had alternate tunings, for example.
In reply to Different scale by ozcaveman
And that''s right that the normal 128 note midi standard can't play these signs... because their value is too small.
I'm thinking of putting these signs in musescore beside flat, sharp and natural. And to put them at the beginning of staff next to the fa clef or sol clef or do clef or... use them like other signs.
And for now i think there is no need to have them in 128 note midi standard. for example for violin to have si koron ( instead of si flat ) which its value is smaller than si flat we have to write a new standard for it...
I'm thinking of them Only as a symbol in note writing... And for play back we may use the flat, shar and natural midi standards...
In reply to And that''s right that the by tahmoores
MuseScore does partly support microtuning. Each note can be shifted from its normal sound with righ click > Note properties > tuning. This tuning property is also accessible by the plugin framework and so, some users created plugins to support the alredy existing quarter tone accidentals (maqrams, etc...) if they are close to the notes. These accidentals can also be used in the key signatures, via create > key signature.
See http://musescore.org/en/plugins for some plugins using microtuning.
In reply to MuseScore does partly support by [DELETED] 5
That's what I was looking for.
In musescore:
Create > Key Signatures > and choose the right one...
Is it possible to add these two signs beside others in that window? so that we may choose.
In reply to Those are interesting symbols. How big should they be, by John Sprung
Like other signs: sharp, flat and natural.
Take a look at the image I have uploaded. it explains everything.
http://www.4shared.com/photo/FQnPw2yB/koron_sori.html
This simple image explains how these two symbols are placed on the staff and how much is their value...
Although I've made this image in program paint not the musescore, but it would be great to have these in musescore.
In reply to Like other signs: sharp, flat by tahmoores
in key signatures, is that right? If so, MuseScore would also have to support custom key signatures in addition to putting them on the accidentals palette.
-- J.S.
In reply to It looks like these quarter tones accidentals are also used by John Sprung
Yes, that's right.
In Iranian music we have different kind of musical scales beside European scales which are totally used in all countries. By putting these two sings (sori and koron) and other signs (sharp, flat and natural) making Iranian musical scales becomes possible. These musical scales are called Dastgah which its meaning in english is System or something like this...
I mean by putting this ability into musescore to add these sings next to the clef or next to a note as an accidental, musescore becomes the first notation software which supports these signs.
In this image I've shown the actual size of these two signs:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/vcK-p-Tz/actual_size.html
I hope to see them in next versions of musescore.
In reply to In this image I've shown the by tahmoores
No need tor an external hoster, these can be attached here, and even show them here:
![koron_sori.png]( "koron_sori.png")
![actual_size.png]( "actual_size.png")
In reply to In this image I've shown the by tahmoores
arrowhead portion of each symbol fitting just between two lines of the staff.
I agree that they should be added to the accidentals palette. Then the handbook should be updated to explain what they mean.
-- J.S.
In reply to In this image I've shown the by tahmoores
For you interest, Michael Good is considering the addition of sori and koron in MusicXML 3.0.
In reply to For you interest, Michael by [DELETED] 5
and how should they be placed relative to the lines of the staff?
Adding the graphics to the accidentals palette should be fairly easy. But I'm not sure what it would take to make them play back correctly.
-- J.S.
frank verdin
In reply to and how should they by FrankVerdin86
It looks like the correct placement goes by the tip of the "arrowhead" part on the right. It either goes on the line, or in the middle of the space.
-- J.S.
For reference, here are fonts containing sori and koron : http://www.pertout.com/PhD2007Introduction.htm
The feta font doesn't contain these symbols yet but there is an open bug in the lilypond bug tracker
In reply to For reference, here are fonts by [DELETED] 5
Thank you... very good one.
http://www.pertout.com/Microton_TT.zip
I tested that Microtonal Notation font. Both signs are included in that font and at their actual size.
I added the two symbols to the mscore-20 font. They are available in the current subversion trunk.
In reply to added by [DELETED] 3
Perfect.
I think beside the flexibility of musescore adding such sings will make it more popular.
In reply to Perfect. I think beside the by tahmoores
The symbols have been added in the branch as well and so will be present in MuseScore 1.1.
Thank you werner.
As these two sign are added to mscore-20 font and as John Sprung said "the handbook should be updated to explain what they mean." so now there should be an explanation for these new added signs.
May I explain them more in this topic? or should I make a new topic and have more clarifying explanations about these signs so the users would know what they mean and what is their usage...
In reply to Thank you werner. As these by tahmoores
I'm not sure I agree with John Sprung. The handbook is not meant to be an encyclopedia. If you don't know the two signs you should not use them. If you want to know more, a tooltip will display their names and you can check out Wikipedia or other sources. If the handbook should explain every symbol in MuseScore, it would be a pain to read.
Another point, the online handbook is for the current version of MuseScore (1.0) or for the upcoming 1.1. For MuseScore 2.0, there are only a couple of dedicated pages for the moment.
In reply to I'm not sure I agree with by [DELETED] 5
Note also there are already the "traditional" microtonal accidentals (ironic, as I'm sure these symbols are much more recent than the Iranian ones) already on the palette. These aren't explicitly documented, either. I agree, no need to have the handbook document each and every symbol that appears on the palette. Although I could certainly see an additional page being made available at some point that did just that. This would create a lot of extra translation work, though.
In reply to Note also there are already by Marc Sabatella
I agree. @tahmoores, you could create a tutorial to explain the symbols and how to use it. For example, in the "how to" section. (maybe "How to write persian music") . Anybody can do this.
Or maybe a more in depth tutorial, you might need the website admin to give you permissions to do so but I'm pretty sure he will be ok.
In reply to I agree. @tahmoores, you by [DELETED] 5
@tahmoores If you consider making a tutorial, do it in English so everyone who wants can translate it to their own language. Obviously, you could create the Persian translation.
In reply to I'm not sure I agree with by [DELETED] 5
OK, something very brief, just enough text to give the curious some searchable words.... The problem with completely unidentified symbols is that there's no way to search on them. They would be an obstacle.
-- J.S.
As their explanation is gonna be added to the tutorial I write general information about these signs. Their meaning, their usage and whatever possible information that might be useful but Simple not something long and confusing...
In reply to As their explanation is gonna by tahmoores
Tahmoores, could you point us to some examples, perhaps .MP3 files on line, so we can listen to something you enjoy that uses these accidentals?
-- J.S.
This music is one of those which uses sori. Its name is Zarde Malijeh ( yellow Sparrow ) and is for violin.
It's been written by master Saba.
This link is to the mp3:
http://www.4shared.com/audio/cTtxQZFW/zarde_maliljeh.html
And this one to the music sheet of it:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/xK2R31Kt/Zarde_Malijeh.html
Although those sori sings at the beginning of the staff are added by an image editing software like photoshop not a music notation software.
And about those circles above some notes I have to say that they are another kind of emphasis ( accent ) in Iranian music.
May be you say: At last how many sings? the answer is just these three are in Iranian music. and this kind of emphasis has a wide use and based on where it is put on a note it has three meanings.
In reply to This music is one of those by tahmoores
I was expecting the quartertones to stick out as being very unfamiliar, since we don't hear them in Western music. But instead, it all flows quite naturally.
-- J.S.
** This is the result of my readings to give a clear explanation about these two accidentals. I tried to explain them as simple as possible which is mentioned this simple in our musical books. and for the images we may use these new pictures I've uploaded (sorry I had no where else to upload them):
** Placement of Sori and Koron on the Staff:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/ByxMuwYA/placement.html
** Usage:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/4dhMbscw/mi_koron_mahoor.html
http://www.4shared.com/photo/WEypxMSB/chehargah2.html
** The tutorial:
Koron
An Iranian accidental which means lower in pitch and it lowers a note by a Quarter step (In comparison to the accidental Flat which lowers a note by a half step). It is possible to use this accidental as a key signature.
Sori
An Iranian accidental which means higher in pitch and it raises a note by a Quarter tone (In comparison to the accidental Sharp which raises a note by half step). It is possible to use this accidental as a key signature.
** I hope this information be useful. If anything about these signs and their usage is missing or misunderstood or needs to be updated please tell me.
In reply to tutorial of sori and koron by tahmoores
Thank you for sharing.
Regards,
In reply to tutorial of sori and koron by tahmoores
I added the definitions to the glossary : http://musescore.org/en/handbook/glossary
In reply to tutorial of sori and koron by tahmoores
You could simply attach them here, just like I'll do now.
![placement.png]( "placement.png")
![mi_koron_mahoor.png]( "mi_koron_mahoor.png")
![chehargah2.png]( "chehargah2.png")
You can also *show* them here, like I'll demonstrate here too.
Werner's notes of the Koron symbol.
My dear friends thank you all.
Thank you for adding these two accidentals into musescore... Thank you.
Tahmoores