trying to move rest
Moving timing within a measure is still KILLING me. I've probably posted 10 times on this and am no where really closer to understanding.
In 1st attachment, all I want to do is move the rest at end of measure 1 to the beginning of measure 1. I sort of succeeded by using SHFT Arrow in note entry mode. BUT when I play it, there is an extra hesitation (rest I guess) at beat "3 and" (if I remember correctly).
I want it to play as shown in attach 1 or equivalently, as in attach 2, BUT starting on beat "1 and."
1) why is it not playing corredctl
2) what is best way to move rest to beginning of measures
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Side Effects 8ths2.mscz | 16.32 KB |
| Side Effects 8ths.mscz | 16.29 KB |
Comments
1) The 1st measure in attachment "Side Effects 8ths2" is corrupted. I couldn’t repair it. So I inserted a new measure behind it, wrote the notes again und copied all the texts. Afterwards I deleted the measure totally (Ctrl+Del). As it's the 1st measure I had to repair the key for d major.
2) - Select and copy all the notes of measure 1 (without the rest)
- Select the 2nd note (c#)
- paste
- delete the first note (=> rest)
- delete the excessive texts ("Verse", "A")
Again, Shift+arrow is not a good way to go - it creates corruption in all but the simplest cases. Best to disable that shortcut to remove the temptation. Again, the way to mvoe things is cut and paste, just like in most other programs in the world. Select the region you want to move, cut, click where you want to move it to, paste. it really is exactly that simple. I don't see a rest at the end of measure one in the first attachment, so I'm not really sure what you mean. But most likely, you don't really want to move the *rest*, you want to move the *notes* that are already there, so they start later. Select the notes you want to hear later, cut, click where you want to hear them start instead, paste.
In reply to Again, Shift+arrow is not a by Marc Sabatella
Just had time to look a little further. I guess maybe you meant the second attachment, which *does* have a rest at the end of the measure. So I can confirm it is as I said: it's not that you want the rest earlier; it's that you want the *notes* to be *later*.
1) click first note you want moved (bar 1, "The")
2) shfit+click the last note you want moved (bar 1, "door")
3) ctrl+x to cut
4) press "4" to change the initial rest to an eighth rest
5) press right arrow to move cursor to just after that rest
6) ctrl+v to paste
That's exactly 4 keystrokes once you've told MuseScore which notes you want moved.
In reply to Just had time to look a by Marc Sabatella
And with this, the texts ("A", "Verse") will be attached to the wrong position ...
What's wrong with my solution (https://musescore.org/en/node/103366#comment-463026)?
In reply to And with this, the texts by KHS
Nothing is wrong with it :-). I guess I didn't understand it at first because I was looking at the wrong (presumably) file when I first read your response, which didn't help. Anyhow, both of our solutions amount to the same basic thing: if you want to move notes later in time, you don't do this by trying to "insert" something before them. You simply cut them from their current position and paste them where you want them to be instead. That simple.
Either way, it's true that text normally moves with notes, but you can prevent that by exlcuding the text in the Selection Filter.
BTW, the chord symbols in this chart appear to have been entered correctly - as plain staff text rather than true chord symbols. That will prevent them from transposing correctly, exporting to MusicXML correctly, copying and pasting correctly when copied separately from the notes, or otherwise being treated properly by MuseScore.
In reply to Just had time to look a by Marc Sabatella
well, clearly your suggestion works. I NEVER NEVER would have thought of moving the notes after the rest, cause, in English one says "I want to move rest to beginning of measure," and to get MuseScore to do it, I have to step out of that box. Well, hope I learned.
But while experimenting, I learned that
1) I can copy a note onto a rest but
2) not vice-versa
CopyNPaste is not symmetric between rests & notes (of equal duration) - hmmmm.
In reply to well, clearly your suggestion by dpenny
I NEVER NEVER would have thought of moving the notes after the rest, cause, in English one says "I want to move rest to beginning of measure..."
An important notion in MuseScore is that rests can be regarded as always 'lurking' in each measure, assigned to specific beats (or fractions thereof). That's why an empty score always shows rests (in voice 1). To produce a score, you overwrite rests with sounds (notes).
A while back I remember a forum poster trying to 'move' rests and decribing MuseScore's behavior as 'tyrannical'. I prefer to call it 'temporal rigor'.
In your particular attachment, you wanted the first eighth note to start on beat "1 and".
So, you must expose an eighth rest which 'lurks' in the first half of beat "1". You do so in note entry mode by selecting an eighth note duration and entering 0 (zero) to show the eighth rest. Unfortunately, you overwrote that rest with an A note followed by other notes, ending with an eighth note rest on beat '4 and'.
That last eighth rest should be regarded as a temporal place holder that cannot be moved - neither earlier nor later. However, It can be overwritten - e.g. with an eighth note, two sixteenth notes/rests, etc.
Furthermore, if you click on it, and view the Status bar at the bottom of the page, you will see 'Beat 4.5' (that means '4 and') . Now here's the catch: You cannot move beat '4.5' to an earlier point in time (any more than turning your wristwatch back - or ahead - will transport you through time).
So...
That's why copy/cut/paste is used to move notes and then set them down in the 'exact spot' you want them to sound.
If you want to get rid of any entered note(s), simply delete and the 'lurking' rest(s) will automatically appear.
Regards.
In reply to well, clearly your suggestion by dpenny
I'm afraid you're still misunderstanding. You want the notes to sound later, so you need to move them, nit trick MuseScore into moving them by moving a rest. It really is as simple as that. You don't move silence, you move sound. You *can* move the rest if you want, but only the rest will move - it won't magically also move the notes. If you want the notes to move, simply do so directly.
More (perhaps different) perspective... see attachment.
Regards.
In reply to More (perhaps different) by Jm6stringer
jm6...
UNBELIEVEABLE if I had not seen & experienced it just now.
1) your sample SHOULD BE on the home/startup page
2) also at the FRONT of Handbook. I don't see/read any hint of it at all. IF it is there, it is couched in music gobble-de-gook.
3) I've got to do more experimenting to really understand the implications.
THANKS.
PS. it is brilliantly done.
In reply to jm6... UNBELIEVEABLE if I had by dpenny
No reason we can't add a link in the Handbook. The "front" isn't realistic, but do you think we should put a link on the "Copy and paste" page, or the "Note input" page?
In reply to No reason we can't add a link by Isaac Weiss
You can't see the forest cause the trees are in your way. Which page is irrelevant (although better than nothing) ....
EVERYONE EVERYONE (how can I say it louder?) expects what they see on the display to be THE TRUE STATE OF THE WORLD, i.e. their score. The fact that MuseScore ( and perhaps other music notational tools) don't do it is IRRELEVANT.
Rise Up and DO BETTER.
Yeah, change the underlying data structures and sub-algorithms.
In reply to You can't see the forest by dpenny
"EVERYONE EVERYONE…" I feel bad saying this, but, no. Everyone except most people who understand sheet music, I'm afraid. Eight million other MuseScore users have never been confused by this.
What makes sheet music fundamentally different from text or images is that the extra fourth dimension of time is represented, and not as a free-flowing variable, either—it's divided into absolutely rigid binary fractions (even tuplets are forced to fit into this system), which in turn must add up to assigned larger fractions between pairs of barlines. It's weird when put in these terms, but it's something you get used to as you learn to read music, count, and keep a steady beat.
What you're asking is for MuseScore to allow you to freely slide notes and rests back and forth, moving them between each other and so on. What I don't think you realize you're asking is for MuseScore to abandon concepts like note duration, barlines, and the number of beats per measure.
You might find yourself more comfortable with a MIDI sequencer with a piano roll editor, and no music engraving focus.
In reply to "EVERYONE EVERYONE…" I feel by Isaac Weiss
I do hear you - thanks for your patient thoughts.
Am not sure what a MIDI sequence is, never head the term - will google it a bit.
What I do need is the ability to
1) enter|edit|move notes on Treble clef staff and have it show up also in guitar TAB, and
2) vice-versa,
3) to start with any format of sheet music I find on internet and wind up with 1&2 above.
I realize #3 is a bit of a stretch, that's why I am focused on 1&2.
Happy Bunny Day to all.
In reply to I do hear you - thanks for by dpenny
Start with the "Guitar + Tablature" template, that should take care of 1 and 2
And pasting or entering notes from the internet into that should take care of 3
See https://musescore.org/en/handbook/tablature
In reply to You can't see the forest by dpenny
I don't understand. In what way is what you see on the display *not* the "true state of the world"? I don't see the problem you are referring to that would require any change whatsoever to underlying data structures or algorithms.
EDIT: are you referring to the score posted showing that MuseScore allows you to physically drag notes around to a different position than what the actual time position would indicate? First, this would never happen normally - you'd have to go way out of your way to make it happen. And second, the occasional need to do this does come up. I don't see any reason why MuseScore should be redesigned to disallow this feature.
In reply to I don't understand. In what by Marc Sabatella
display *not* the "true state of the world
1) in my most recent post w an attachment, I noted that what was display is NOT what was played
2) jm6.... put together (or already had) a score with lots of text explanation that illustrated the issue. he included it as an attachment to his most recent reply - I presume you can see/find it.
Re #1, I now realize that I created the problem by SHFT Arrow which is known to be buggy.
Re #2, it is just short of genius as an explanation. It is probably more important than "how to enter notes."
And as to the latter... "MuseScore should be redesigned to disallow this feature."
Well not quite, rather, redesigned to behave the way 99% of humans would expect.
(if the 1% is/are the music gurus of the world, too bad, I am part of the 99%. Do you want MuseScore use to spread or be limited?)
In reply to display *not* the "true state by dpenny
Almost every software program, whilst designed to work for 99% of users, will have "features" (you may wish to call them bugs) that someone, somewhere can use to cause disastrous results. Manually moving notes in a music typesetting program so far out of position that they appear in the wrong order is one example; turning the text in your word processor to white on a white background is another; formatting your hard drive and answering "Yes" when warned what it will do is yet another; and the list continues with things like turning your android tablet's display brightness so far down that you can't read it to reset it. In short, no program or system can be made completely safe from the end user and in that 1% of circumstances it is the user that must change and not the system.
In reply to display *not* the "true state by dpenny
I believe you are thinking Musescore should flow notes out as if it were a word processor.
I think of it more like a spreadsheet program (although the analogy breaks down quickly - don't try to carry it too far) . If I have 4 quarter notes / quavers in a measure, note 1 might be in a slot called "column A" , the next notes next in columns B, C, D. If I delete the note in column B, columns C and D don't shift to the left. Nor do I want them to.
Having Musescore flow the notes like a word processor might make superficial sense if I only ever wrote single lines of music. But as soon as I have multiple instruments or piano bass and treble clefs, it would become unwieldy.
Years ago I did use a piece of software that worked as you suggest years ago. It would quickly make a mess of even a single line of music as I started using notes of various durations, especially inserting or deleting eights and sixteenths etc.
In reply to I believe you are thinking by jim.weisgram
Except that when you delete cell B1 in your spreadsheet it asks you if you want to shift cells C, D, ... to the left, something impossible with Musescore, you have to cut and paste.
Once you understand the way it works it is no problem, but it could also allow shifting on delete.
Especially when you enter several notes and afterwards you see that you forgot a dot for the first one of the measure, having to cut and paste the whole measure (except the first note) instead of being able to just inserting the dot is annoying (while it doesn't prevent to use Musescore to get any result you want, it is just "annoying" or "surprising" depending of your point of view)
In reply to Except that when you delete by frfancha
FWIW, I do support the idea of adding a feature that would work this way - deleting a range would shift some (unspecified) number of subsequent notes over to the left to fill the void, also an "insert" that pushed some (unspecified) number of subsequent notes over to the right, presumably overwriting whatever was already there. Common sense suggests that whatever we guess for the "unspecified" number of notes to move is going to what you want sometimes, not what you want other times, and experience with FInale suggests that it's going to be wrong *more* often than not and thus require more work to get the intended results than the currently extremely straightofrward method of using cut and paste. And thus I would not be OK with getting rid of the curreent simple and predictable behavior and replacing it with the proposed one. But again, as a separate feature invoked by a special command for those who wish to take the chance MuseScore will happen to guess the right number of notes to move, sure, why not.
In reply to FWIW, I do support the idea by Marc Sabatella
Indeed keeping the current behavior and adding the shift as an explicit optional choice seems the correct way to add the feature.
Regarding how Musescore could select the number of notes to shift, I think that at minimum it should simply be all. Exactly as in a spreadsheet in fact. An additional mode of shifting "current measure only" would also be useful.
It doesn't need to be more complex than that, all other situations can be handled by the cut and paste process.
As an example (among others) of when I would use the shift all: this morning I add to enter violin studies with almost exclusively 1/8th notes and very unfrequently 1/4th notes. It would have been convenient to just enter all notes as 1/8th without paying attention to the measures and only after change the few 1/4th notes.
In reply to Except that when you delete by frfancha
"Except that when you delete cell B1..."
True. But not if you delete just the contents of the cell.
After that the analogy does break down.
In reply to "Except that when you delete by jim.weisgram
And deleting the cell itself is much like deleting a full measure in MuseScore via Ctrl+Delete, which does indeed move the other "cells" (measures) to the left. So the analogy is not so bad really.
Anyhow, for people who migfht still have trouble understanding how to move things around, here's a visual.
Say we are starting with this:
And we want to end up with this:
Notice I have labeled the beats for clarity. The original begins on beat 1, we want to shift everything over to start on 1&.
We could try using cut and paste to move the rest at the end of the measure to the beginning, but that moves only the one rest, leaving everything else right where it was. Moving a rest to a different place in the score is kind of pointless of the time. It's just a way less efficient way of creating silence than the usual way, which is to simply delete the ntoes you don't want to hear any more. Either method yields the exactly same results here: whether you "move" the rest to beat one via cut and paste or whether you select the note currently on beat one then press Delete, you end up with the rest on beat 1 but the rest of the notes on exactly the same beats they were in originally:
So you have a rest at the beginning of the measure, but the remainder of the notes are exactly where you originally put them. This is the wrong way to go about it. If you look at the original example, you see the word "The" was on beat 1, the syllable "slam" on 1&, etc. In the desired result, this is shifted half a beat later: "The" is on 1&, "slam" on 2. So instead of trying to *trick* MuseScore into moving these notes (and guessing how many notes you want moved), simply *tell MuseScore which notes you want to move* and then *move them directly* using cut and paste.
In this example, there are exactly six notes you want moved. So select them (eg, click the first, Shift+click the last, although there are lots of other ways to make selections):
Notice the text indicating the beats are not selected - I used the Selection Filter to exclude text.
Now I simply follow the steps I outlined earlier:
- cut (Ctrl+X)
- change initial rest to eighth rest (click, press "4")
- select next rest (press Right arrow)
- paste (Ctrl+V)
This yields exactly the desired result, just a handful of clicks after telling MuseScore which notes you want to move (and after all, you are the only one who knows).
This is how you move notes around in MuseScore and many other notation programs - cut and paste them directly, don't try to trick the program into moving notes for you by moving or deleting other things in front of the notes you actually want moved. There were five notes you wanted moved a half beat later, so just do so directly. Same process you'd use to move them half a beat earlier, or 17 measure later, or to another score entirely.
In reply to And deleting the cell itself by Marc Sabatella
Marc, seems to me that this could be a "how-to". Then as the original question comes up again (and again ...) replying could be simplified. Seems like it would save YOU a lot of time :-)
In reply to Marc, seems to me that this by jim.weisgram
Great Idea. Marc put a lot of effort into his earlier post.
In general most of my editing will be shifting things left or right 1/2 beat, or reducing a note duration and adding to adjunct one, etc.. It is these small|subtle changes that can give BlueGrass|Folk|Blues its pack & punch - IMO.
THX again for this forum.
In reply to Marc, seems to me that this by jim.weisgram
Thanks, I realized as I was writing this it should probably be made a how-to. But I'd need to rewrite this a bit to provide full context, and probably choose a more generic example. If someone else wants to take this on, be my guest, otherwise hopefully I'll get around to it at some point.
FWIW, there's a similar example on page 92 of my book :-)
In reply to display *not* the "true state by dpenny
Well, your post contained a score that is corrupted due to a bug in the current version of MuseScore. That bug is already fixed for 2.0.3. In general, though, what is displayed *is* what is played unless you explicitly go out of your way to ask MuseScore to do something different.
#2 I don't see why you think is such a big deal. I have been visiting this forum almsot daily for around six years, and I don't recall anyone *ever* having an issue with that. People just don't do that. I think perhaps you might be misunderstanding what that score is demonstrating. it is using manual position offsets in a way probably no one has ever tried to do to before. It's not something most people would expect - it's not something that would ever occur to most people to try. Manually adjusting the positions of notes one by one to make them look like they are in a different place than musical rules would dictates? Why on earth would anyone even think to try that?
This has nothing to do with moving notes by cut and paste, which of course is the standard usual way of moving notes. Perhaps that wasn't clear to you? The score in question used a technique that would never occur to the vast majority of users, and the very few advanced users who might know about it would know full well what they were doing and why or they wouldn't be doing it.