Lyrics auto-pasting: efficient?
I have not tested it recently, but there used to be a feature allowing to repeatedly paste (Ctrl-V) syllables from the clipboard into the Lyrics of a score with a single copy operation (in fact, the relevant code is still there).
As it is, this feature has a number of shortcomings:
1) Requires the text to be extensively prepared before copying, separating individual syllables; this might be less inconvenient for English, with its relatively high percentage of single syllable words, but is definitely cumbersome for languages like Italian, French and German.
2) After pasting a sylable, the cursor automatically advances to the next note, without a chance to enter a dash or a melisma.
3) After the last syllable in the clipboard is pasted, the clipboard is empy; this disallows to repeatedly pasting the same text, sometime required to enter uncommon characters.
2) and 3) could easily be fixed, but 1) is inherently a problem.
Given that MuseScore cannot be expected to know how to parse syllables of a text (in an unspecified language), I am asking if:
A) Isn't it the case to drop this feature altogether?
B) If the feature should remain (for the sake of the few cases when it makes sense), shouldn't at least 2) and 3) be fixed? Fixing 2) would mean removing the auto-advance behaviour; fixing 3) would mean leaving the last syllable in the clipboard after it has been pasted.
Thanks for any comment,
M.
Comments
To fix 2 I would propose to enhance the parser a bit and recognize 'foo-" has an indication that it should enter "foo" and a dash. Same for _. It would be a lot better than removing the autoadvance feature IMHO. 2/ is also describe here #7885: Lyric pasting should break at hyphens
I don't see the problem with 3/. Could you explain again?
In order to rework this feature in depth, MuseScore should have a text editor of lyrics. The feature has been asked a couple of time. Changing the lyrics in the editor would change them in the score as well. A bit like NWC. That would also allow to save line breaks in lyrics, to delete a verse of lyrics very quickly etc... but it looks like a long shot.
In reply to To fix 2 I would propose to by [DELETED] 5
I would love see effort go toward an actual lyrics editor, where changes automatically get reflected in the score. Finale also has this (although in my experience, it's pretty buggy). But on the assumption that this is a lot of work, sure, any improvements to the existing copy facility would be nice. I don't see #1 as such a big issue, either. Yes, it's a pain, but there is no getting around needing to break up words into syllables when entering lyrics. Doing so up front isn't that different from doong so on the fly. Except, of course, you dom't get feedback that you messed up until later, which is why an editor that let you go back and fix things like this and automatically update the score would be the real improvement.
@ lasconic:
2) adding to auto-paste the ability to recognize hyphens and underscore would be an improvement. Of course, taking into account that Unicode has 5 or 6 (perhaps more, I don't remember) hyphens, dashes, ...
3) The problem is: a character is needed repeatedly and is not readily available; often it is easier to get it once (for instance via the character map) and then paste it each time; but pasting into a lyric clears the clipboard; in addition, pasting to a lyrics advances the cursor to the next note, which is not necessarily good. The solution is not to clear and not to advance if there is only one text fragment.
4) While writing this answer, I noticed another, perhaps even greater, problem: synalepha. Currently the auto-pasting feature totally disregards the fact that, for instance in first verse of Marenzio's Solo e pensoso, whose text is "Solo e pensoso i più deserti campi", the syllables "-lo" and "e" must go under a single note, as well the syllables "-so" and "i". Is there any way around this?
@ Marc:
I have never used Finale or a program with a "lyrics editor" and I do not even understand what such a thing could be: is it 'just' a separate storage for lyrics, which could be edited like a continuous text? How lyrics for the different parts are managed? How 'coupling' syllables with individual notes in individual parts is managed?
Splitting syllables while 'under the notes' IS different than splitting them 'in abstract'; at least in Italian (which has been pretty much used in music, hasn't it?), a number of words may have a different number of syllables if diaeresis is used or not; for instance all diphtongs ending a words, like in "mio", could be set to just one or to two notes ("mi-o"); only the actual musical context / source or author choice can decide; for instance, again in Solo e pensoso, "si aspre vie" has no diaeresis on "vie" (just one note), but the last verse "ragionando con meco et io con lui" has diaeresis on "lu-i" (two notes) .
And there is synalepha again: against the example given above, in the same Solo e pensoso, in another verse, the text is syllabed "ma pur si aspre vie" without synalepha between "si" and "a-spre". Also, the same last verse quoted above has no synalepha on "-co et" (which would be required by the metric, so that the verse as set to music does not have the eleven syllables Petrarch intended it to have, but twelve!!)
Thanks,
M.
In reply to Explanations by Miwarre
Pizzicato offers such an editor. However Lyrics are stored dispersed in the file.
I join a file (a text one) and the related pdf
The sylable of the 1st chord (4 verses) appear at line 2157
pa(Sur|Par|El|Quel|||||,i=1,x=85,y1=26,y2=38,y3=52,y4=65,y5=77,y6=91,y7=104,y8=117,d3=30,d4=31)
In reply to Explanations by Miwarre
2/ Just adding the recognition of the standard - and _ would be already a big improvement.
3/ This is a corner case. If we are not talking about a lyrics editor, I would do special characters addition in a second pass. Copy pasting the lyrics is just a a quick way to add them. There will always be fixes to do in a second pass.
4/ We could imagine a special character for synalepha. Something like "So- lo|e pen- so"
Another popular feature request is the ability to shift lyrics btw. It would make it easier to fix copy paste errors. A lyric editor would make it possible.
Regarding "Lyric editor", if you want to get an idea of how it looks, you can download Noteworthy composer evalutation version for free. Basically, for each staff, you have a dialog with 9 tabs, one for each lyric verse. Each tab contains a text area where you can change the lyrics. The lyrics are added/coupled to the score following the rules we are trying to define now for copy paste. The "big" question is "should the rule consider the music when coupling the lyrics?" (tie, slurs etc...).
A video http://www.screenr.com/nUn7 to illustrate the "very simple" lyrics editor of NWC.
In reply to Explanations by Miwarre
I assume diffeent programs do the lyrics editor differently. Finale is pretty simplistic. Picture a nasic text edit widget in a dialog. You type lyrics like this:
Ma-ry had a lit-tle lamb, lit-tle lamb, lit-tle lamb
Ma-ru had a lit-tle lamb, it's fleece was white as snow.
Then you go nack to your score, click the first note where you want the lyrics to start assigning, and either click to add syllables to notes one at a time, or shift-click (?) to go through the whole lyrics assigning notes. At which point, you look at the end of your score, discover you are inevitably off somewhere because you forgot a hyphen or the underscore used for melisma somewhere.(not sure about synalha, but presumably a convention could exist for that). So you hunt through you score, find where it got off. Go back to the lyrics editor, find the corresponding spot, fix it, and exit the editor, and about 80% of the time, the lyrics automatically readjust themselves. The other 20% you end up with weird artifacts so you delete all the lyrics and repeat the shift-click operation. The lyrics editor allows you to enter the lyrics for each verse separately, also to identify verse separate from chorus, etc.
In reply to I assume diffeent programs do by Marc Sabatella
Pizzicato works similar. However I consider that it would be helpful in comparison with our present Musescore
As I said, I never used a notation program with a 'lyrics editor'. From the descriptions given, it seems to me a very counter-intuitive way of working: as I hope to have explained above, at least for my experience, lyrics placement very often requires looking at the notes, not at the text. After all, syllables are eventually put under the notes, why not to do this in the first place?
Writing the text trying to guess placement tricks, apply, discover it didn't work, modify (blindly) the text, apply again and so on does not seem to me a real improvement over the current situation.
What are probably missing are some additional tools, like a command to select a number of consecutive syllables and shift them one 'position' to the right or to the left, to make easier correcting a skipped or duplicated syllable. Given the current architecture, it would require a fair amount of code, but I don't foresee any significant programmatic complexity.
Of course, there would be a number of things to set (for intance, what the 'next position' is and what to do if the shifting finds a 'position' already occupied by a syllable), but this would seem to me a much more intuitve way of working. Am I mind-twisted?
Thanks,
M.
In reply to As I said, I never used a by Miwarre
Having worked both ways in Finale, I'd have to say that as awkward as the lyric editor sounds, it can be somewhat quicker. Sometimes. But yeah, I usually prefer direct entry into the score too.
In reply to Having worked both ways in by Marc Sabatella
I agree, from my experience with Pizzicato.
However, for corrections, using the lyrics editor is easier
In reply to As I said, I never used a by Miwarre
I agree that a lyric editor can be counter intuitive to add lyrics to the score. But it's quite powerful to edit the lyrics, shift them, copy paste them from one staff to another and so on.
In reply to As I said, I never used a by Miwarre
So, I was not totally off mark.
Is it possible that the 'lyrics editor' concept has been brought up only because some other program uses it? that it possibly is not the way to go, or at least the most sensible way to go? Are there other paradigms? or can they be worked out?
Reasoning that lyrics have so many and so specific requirements and constrains that they poorly qualify as simply 'text' -- as much as notes themselves do not qualify as text simply because they can be spelled out A B C ... -- I am speculating if improving the management of lyrics in place (i.e. directly under the notes) is not quicker and more "user friendly".
Some suggestions:
1a) Easiy and intuitive selection of sequences of lyrics syllables; for instance, if a syllable is selected, [Shift][Right] could selected the next (repeat as needed).
1b) [Shift][click] on another syllable could select all the syllables in between.
2) Selected syllables could be more easily movable one (or more) 'position' to the right or to the left. An initial implementation could use explicit command(s) for this, for instance in the contextual menu. A more refined implementation could allow to drag the selected group of syllable and having each syllable to 'snap' to the next (or previous) 'position'.
3) Selected syllables could be copied to clipboard and pasted back to a staff. This is already possible for individual syllables and could be extended to deal with sequences of syllables.
and so on (add your own requirements).
Ultimately, the lyrics themselves in their due places would be the 'lyrics editor'. Possibly each operation would be a little slower and a little less 'streamlined' than having a separate editor, but the immediate result would make more intuitive each step as well as the sequence of steps needed to reach a given result.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
M.