Same Instrument Sound Blended Together?
I'm making a jazz piece and I have a line where three trumpets all have the same part, when I do a playback the 3 parts all sound like one trumpet. I would like to have multiple trumpet sounds. Any idea if this is possible?
Thanks
-Arc
Comments
You could consider using 3 different sound fonts and apply one trumpet sound from each to the trumpet. There are some sound fonts listed here.
In reply to You could consider using 3… by mike320
I will try that out. Thanks for the tip!
@ArcTrooper... you wrote:
when I do a playback the 3 parts all sound like one trumpet.
True, because the playback of unison notes only gets 'louder' -- to simulate more trumpets.
Anyhow...
There's another way without searching for and using multiple sound fonts:
For any unison lines, you can select all the notes and slightly 'detune' them in the Inspector.
This will give the impression of more than one trumpet.
Have a listen:
Multiple_trumpets.mscz
Regards.
In reply to @ArcTrooper... you wrote:… by Jm6stringer
because the playback of unison notes only gets 'louder' -- to simulate more trumpets.
Sure about this? This would be desired behavoir, but AFAIK doesn't happen in MuseScore
In reply to because the playback of… by Jojo-Schmitz
Have a listen:
Single_Multiple_trumpets.mscz
I'm using MuseScore_General.sf3 sound font.
Sound is louder when 2 are in unison.
Regards.
In reply to [inline:Single_Multiple… by Jm6stringer
Ah, OK. But does that also happen when notated in a single staff, using voices?
Edit: no, it does not, and that is the problem I meant to talk about.
In reply to Ah, OK. But does that also… by Jojo-Schmitz
Ah!
Here each trumpet has it's own staff.
Therefore, separate instruments rather than all condensed onto one staff as voices.
Two_trumpets.mscz
Regards.
In reply to Ah!… by Jm6stringer
That trick does not work with different voices in unison, seems the detune doesn't have any effect, resp. the tuning of voice 2 overrides the tuning of voice 1
In reply to That trick does not work… by Jojo-Schmitz
Probably related to the overlapping MIDI instructions, which only look at tpc for determining which note should be played and which one 'muted'.
In reply to Probably related to the… by jeetee
Probably. And for some instruments (like Piano) this might be the right thing. it is not for those where the same pitch can get created in different ways (like Guitar, different strings on different frets playing same pitch) and when multiple instruments are notated in a single staff (like Closed Score SATB).
In reply to Probably. And for some… by Jojo-Schmitz
This is the generic "keyboard-model vs channel-per-voice" issue. It is my understanding from @mirabilos that the OPTION of separate channels per voice in staff, which is what multiple instruments on a single staff require, is in the plans for an future major release, no?
In reply to This is the generic … by [DELETED] 1831606
Good point, yes, that indeed may be it.
In reply to That trick does not work… by Jojo-Schmitz
Where there's a will... ;-)
Have a listen:
Unison_voices.mscz
Regards.
In reply to Where there's a will... ;-)… by Jm6stringer
I was confused about what he did here -- comment removed.
In reply to Where there's a will... ;-)… by Jm6stringer
Nice tricks :-)
In reply to Nice tricks :-) by Jojo-Schmitz
@Jojo... you wrote:
That trick does not work with different voices in unison, seems the detune doesn't have any effect...
It's interesting that 2 voices as a unison on a single staff cannot be de-tuned even though a non-unison pair of notes can be de-tuned.
So, since detuning does work with different notes, I thought perhaps something like 'G' in one voice and 'Ab' or 'Abb' (double flat) in the other voice would give 2 discrete notes able to be detuned. No such luck, as the tuning of one voice overrides the other. (As you noted.)
What did work was to notate the unison pair at 2 semitones difference (e.g. 'G' and 'A'); then, almost maxxing out the 'Tuning' dial to bring the pair's pitch close to sounding in unison.
Regards.
( P.S. It is a much simpler hack for unisons on different staves, which require require only a slight detune to give a 'second instrument' effect.)
In reply to Where there's a will... ;-)… by Jm6stringer
How did you connect the fourth voice to the muted channel? (later: He didn't! I was "misled" ...)
In reply to How did you connect the… by [DELETED] 1831606
@BSG.... You wrote:
How did you connect the fourth voice to the muted channel?
I did not use the muted channel. Normally, sound changes like mute are enabled through staff text properties.
Here's what I did:
The fourth voice (which was made invisible) actually plays notes which were notated 2 semitones below each respective unison. (So, if the unison note is 'A', enter a 'G' in the 4th voice.)
Then, all the voice 4 notes were brought close in tuning to voice 1 (via the Inspector), so that voice 1 and voice 4 sound like 2 trumpets playing in unison.
(Remember: Unisons notated as such cannot be detuned to sound like multiple trumpets. Also, some measures like 3, 5, and 7 do not play unisons at all; and so do not need the 'trick', because two different notes played together already sound like 2 trumpets.)
To continue...
Now, since voice 4 is invisible and has playback, I entered notes in voice 2 for those 'trick' measures strictly for notation.
Finally, voice 2 notes were made silent only for those 'trick' measures (because the invisible voice 4 plays as the second trumpet for those measures).
Have a listen:
Unison_trumpet_voices.mscz
Earlier, you also wrote:
...but doesn't extend to flute, etc.
You can change the instrument to flute and it will sound as two flutes playing. (No 'mute' channel is used or needed.)
Have a listen:
Unison_flute_voices.mscz
Regards.
EDIT: OOPS... problem with wrong attachment.
In reply to @BSG.... You wrote:… by Jm6stringer
I get it, silly me. There is no channel hacking at all, just badly detuned notes in other voices.
In reply to [inline:Single_Multiple… by Jm6stringer
Sound is louder when the same sound is overlayed with itself, indeed, but not usually in a good way. Instead, you get all sorts of phase artifacts.
In reply to Sound is louder when the… by Marc Sabatella
Instead, you get all sorts of phase artifacts.
Yes!... Artifacts!....The good ones are a hallmark of live performance! ;-)
Regards.
In reply to Instead, you get all sorts… by Jm6stringer
Yeah, but "the bad ones", e.g,., "both instruments being totally in phase creates an unnatural and ugly sound", are what we have.
In reply to Yeah, but "the bad ones", i… by [DELETED] 1831606
Well... totally in phase unisons are destroyed by detuning!
In real life, two clarinets playing a 'unison note' are not totally in phase.
Detuning unisons introduces audible beats. (As any piano tuner knows, a 'hony tonk' piano is purposefully detuned.)
Still, there is an art, and very likely a limit, as to how much tweaking can be done before bad stuff happens.
Even in the digital processing of music, the additive waveform of combined looped samples (when assembled into a recording) can generate a specific periodicity. This can present to the listener as noise, distortion, or artifacts - e.g. pronounced beats heard on protracted notes, clicks, hiss, out-of-tune pitch.
So, it's all an impressive mix of art and science.
Regards.
P.S... Re: art and science:
I'm often amused when I notice a 'humanize playback' feature in midi software; then, conversely, I encounter people laboring to 'quantize' a midi so it can be successfully notated in a scorewriting application.
For me, nothing beats live performance! :-)
In reply to Yes... totally in phase… by Jm6stringer
P.P.S... on the subject of intentional artifacts: Richard Dorf in one of his editions of Electronic Musical Instruments (about electronic organs) likened imitation air noise and such to placing ants on the dining room table to simulate the ambiance of a picnic.
In reply to P.P.S... on the subject of… by grinningcat
Did he say anything about meticulously sampled artifact noise?
In reply to Did he say anything about… by [DELETED] 1831606
No; the book was from 1968, if it wasn't one of the earlier editions.
The issue here is that the current soundfont is playing back 3 exact samples, so they will sound absolutely indistinguishable. SF2/SF3 is a bit limited in this regard.
For the new percussion soundfont, we are using SFZ that will support random alternation between multiple samples ("round robin") and should add some new capabilities to the Zerberus synthesizer to better support this sort of thing.
I do believe that playback for Jazz could definitely be better supported in the future through a specific soundfont created specifically for the genre, that also uses SFZ instead. Once the new percussion soundfont is complete and the MuseScore_General soundfont is completed, this is definitely something I'd love to work on.
We're learning a lot by creating our own samples for the new percussion soundfont and in my dream scenario, we'd sample the UNT One O'clock. :-)
In reply to The issue here is that the… by Daniel
Makes no difference in the current setup; 2 voices in unison on the same staff can only play one note on one channel, no matter how many alternatives you have available. If, indeed, we were to have optional channel-per-voice, the "slightly different alternated samples" would indeed be terrific.
In reply to The issue here is that the… by Daniel
One O'clock samples? There would be nothing better for jazz music but it would be terrible for classical. As a High School Jazz musician the UNT One O'clock was my idol!
In reply to One O'clock samples? There… by mike320
Oh yeah, would be horrible for classical. This is why a separate soundfont for Jazz in SFZ format would be ideal.
Well, if we were able to get guys from Blue Devils to record the samples for the new marching percussion sounds, I don't think One O'Clock would entirely out of the question. :-)
In reply to Oh yeah, would be horrible… by Daniel
Please, what do both of you mean by "One O'Clock" in this context?
In reply to Please, what do both of you… by [DELETED] 1831606
@BSG - It is in reference to the One O'Clock Lab Band at University of North Texas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H586tcoqS54
Thank you everyone who has commented and tried out some experimental things. Maybe Showing you guys where I would like a multiple trumpet and sax effect would be.
I have uploaded a very early version of this piece (I'm just cautious for people who might copy and continue this). I have comments included.
In reply to Thank you everyone who has… by ArcTrooper Studios
For measures 9 - 23:
I selected the second staff (alto sax 2) notes and 'detuned' them in the Inspector.
Same for the fourth staff (tenor sax 2).
Have a listen:
Jazz_Piece.mscz
Regards.