Same Instrument Sound Blended Together?

• Apr 25, 2018 - 00:43

I'm making a jazz piece and I have a line where three trumpets all have the same part, when I do a playback the 3 parts all sound like one trumpet. I would like to have multiple trumpet sounds. Any idea if this is possible?

Thanks

-Arc


Comments

You could consider using 3 different sound fonts and apply one trumpet sound from each to the trumpet. There are some sound fonts listed here.

@ArcTrooper... you wrote:
when I do a playback the 3 parts all sound like one trumpet.
True, because the playback of unison notes only gets 'louder' -- to simulate more trumpets.

Anyhow...
There's another way without searching for and using multiple sound fonts:
For any unison lines, you can select all the notes and slightly 'detune' them in the Inspector.
This will give the impression of more than one trumpet.

Have a listen:
Multiple_trumpets.mscz

Regards.

In reply to by jeetee

Probably. And for some instruments (like Piano) this might be the right thing. it is not for those where the same pitch can get created in different ways (like Guitar, different strings on different frets playing same pitch) and when multiple instruments are notated in a single staff (like Closed Score SATB).

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

This is the generic "keyboard-model vs channel-per-voice" issue. It is my understanding from @mirabilos that the OPTION of separate channels per voice in staff, which is what multiple instruments on a single staff require, is in the plans for an future major release, no?

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

@Jojo... you wrote:
That trick does not work with different voices in unison, seems the detune doesn't have any effect...

It's interesting that 2 voices as a unison on a single staff cannot be de-tuned even though a non-unison pair of notes can be de-tuned.
So, since detuning does work with different notes, I thought perhaps something like 'G' in one voice and 'Ab' or 'Abb' (double flat) in the other voice would give 2 discrete notes able to be detuned. No such luck, as the tuning of one voice overrides the other. (As you noted.)
What did work was to notate the unison pair at 2 semitones difference (e.g. 'G' and 'A'); then, almost maxxing out the 'Tuning' dial to bring the pair's pitch close to sounding in unison.

Regards.
( P.S. It is a much simpler hack for unisons on different staves, which require require only a slight detune to give a 'second instrument' effect.)

In reply to by BSG

@BSG.... You wrote:
How did you connect the fourth voice to the muted channel?
I did not use the muted channel. Normally, sound changes like mute are enabled through staff text properties.

Here's what I did:
The fourth voice (which was made invisible) actually plays notes which were notated 2 semitones below each respective unison. (So, if the unison note is 'A', enter a 'G' in the 4th voice.)
Then, all the voice 4 notes were brought close in tuning to voice 1 (via the Inspector), so that voice 1 and voice 4 sound like 2 trumpets playing in unison.
(Remember: Unisons notated as such cannot be detuned to sound like multiple trumpets. Also, some measures like 3, 5, and 7 do not play unisons at all; and so do not need the 'trick', because two different notes played together already sound like 2 trumpets.)

To continue...
Now, since voice 4 is invisible and has playback, I entered notes in voice 2 for those 'trick' measures strictly for notation.
Finally, voice 2 notes were made silent only for those 'trick' measures (because the invisible voice 4 plays as the second trumpet for those measures).
Have a listen:
Unison_trumpet_voices.mscz

Earlier, you also wrote:
...but doesn't extend to flute, etc.
You can change the instrument to flute and it will sound as two flutes playing. (No 'mute' channel is used or needed.)
Have a listen:
Unison_flute_voices.mscz

Regards.
EDIT: OOPS... problem with wrong attachment.

In reply to by BSG

Well... totally in phase unisons are destroyed by detuning!
In real life, two clarinets playing a 'unison note' are not totally in phase.
Detuning unisons introduces audible beats. (As any piano tuner knows, a 'hony tonk' piano is purposefully detuned.)
Still, there is an art, and very likely a limit, as to how much tweaking can be done before bad stuff happens.
Even in the digital processing of music, the additive waveform of combined looped samples (when assembled into a recording) can generate a specific periodicity. This can present to the listener as noise, distortion, or artifacts - e.g. pronounced beats heard on protracted notes, clicks, hiss, out-of-tune pitch.
So, it's all an impressive mix of art and science.
Regards.

P.S... Re: art and science:
I'm often amused when I notice a 'humanize playback' feature in midi software; then, conversely, I encounter people laboring to 'quantize' a midi so it can be successfully notated in a scorewriting application.
For me, nothing beats live performance! :-)

The issue here is that the current soundfont is playing back 3 exact samples, so they will sound absolutely indistinguishable. SF2/SF3 is a bit limited in this regard.

For the new percussion soundfont, we are using SFZ that will support random alternation between multiple samples ("round robin") and should add some new capabilities to the Zerberus synthesizer to better support this sort of thing.

I do believe that playback for Jazz could definitely be better supported in the future through a specific soundfont created specifically for the genre, that also uses SFZ instead. Once the new percussion soundfont is complete and the MuseScore_General soundfont is completed, this is definitely something I'd love to work on.

We're learning a lot by creating our own samples for the new percussion soundfont and in my dream scenario, we'd sample the UNT One O'clock. :-)

In reply to by Daniel

Makes no difference in the current setup; 2 voices in unison on the same staff can only play one note on one channel, no matter how many alternatives you have available. If, indeed, we were to have optional channel-per-voice, the "slightly different alternated samples" would indeed be terrific.

In reply to by mike320

Oh yeah, would be horrible for classical. This is why a separate soundfont for Jazz in SFZ format would be ideal.

Well, if we were able to get guys from Blue Devils to record the samples for the new marching percussion sounds, I don't think One O'Clock would entirely out of the question. :-)

Thank you everyone who has commented and tried out some experimental things. Maybe Showing you guys where I would like a multiple trumpet and sax effect would be.

I have uploaded a very early version of this piece (I'm just cautious for people who might copy and continue this). I have comments included.

Attachment Size
WIP Jazz Piece (Still Has no Name).mscz 41.56 KB

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