Deleting all clef changes introduces new clefs, that cannot be removed

• Dec 25, 2018 - 14:05
Reported version
Graphical (UI)
S3 - Major

Attached score was imported from midi, also attached. Only change applied was Instruments.
First two pages:

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.01.43.png

I now select the courtesy clef in measure 21 and all similar elements:

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.01.53.png

Then I remove the selection:

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.02.06.png

As a result, new courtesy clefs appear:

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.02.12.png

These I cannot delete:

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.07.11.png

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.07.23.png

Schermafdruk 2018-12-25 15.07.32.png

I have found no proper workaround while editing, but the problem goes away after saving and reloading the score. So it seems more a display issue than a functional one.

(Cannot select 3.0 release, selected dev instead.
Actual version used: OS: macOS 10.14, Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit):, revision: c1a5e4c)


Generally speaking you shouldn't be trying to deleting courtesy clefs, nor should it succeed if you do. You should instead be disabling those in style settings to do it globally or individually via the Inspector. But apparently this doesn't current work correctly either.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

If you say so: As a user I could accept that, although I find it not very intuitive. Is it perhaps the idea that I can only select and delete them individually? That should certainly be possible in my opinion, and perhaps it is. I did not try.
But why then is it possible to select them all together, if not to delete them? In any case, there should be a warning when you try to delete them in that case. And it certainly should not apparently delete them and in the process introduce others that in turn cannot be deleted at all!

No, courtesy elements and other generated elements (including the clefs generated at the start of systems) are not meant to deletable at all. If you have some special reason to not want them where the normal rules of notation require then, you are supposed to tell MuseScore not to generate them to begin with, using the settings I mentioned. You can select them in order to other things with them however, like hanger their color or offset or whatever.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Sorry, but as a user I consider this very poor UI design. If they are not to be deleted at all (and why not? What is the problem here? I just do not get it, perhaps I am a naive user but those users you also want to cater to I suppose), the delete button should not be selectable in this case. And out of courtesy, you might inform the user that this is a bad idea, and why, so that s/he might learn something useful in the process.

Sorry to disagree, with all due respect, but to me this makes no sense.

In reply to by jeroen2442

I agree that courtesy items should not be selectable, or have deleting them remove the check from the parent "Show courtesy" much like rests are now made invisible when deleted in voice 1.

Of course with version 3, a tour would be a good idea if a courtesy element is selected.

Courtesy elements should remain selectable so you can continue to do things with them other than delete them, but I very much like the idea of redefining "delete" to mean "stop showing courtesy", and also having a tour appear.

As for UI design, it's important to realize that 99% of users would never have reason to select courtesy clefs, and I have no idea why you were trying to. They are standard parts of music notation and most people would not ever want to not show them. Only people creating their own experimental notations, or perhaps creating educational worksheets, or other very specialized advanced applications, would ever try selecting them in the first place, much else try to delete them once selecting them. It's not terribly unreasonable to expect this small percentage of advanced users to consult the documentation to learn how to create this type of specialized notation.

Severity S2 - Critical S3 - Major

Here I cannot reproduce the result of your image after deleting clefs?
Can you reproduce again?
Or extra-step?

(first image below, yours)
and (second image below, mine)

Then, for the record, disabling change clefs and mid-measure clefs can be done in the MIDI import pannel, see image below:
So, if wished: untick "Clef changes" -> and Apply

Finally, Critical severity is reserved to crash and corruption. Nothing similar here. I put to Major before more infos.


In reply to by cadiz1

Workaround No Yes

Yes, I agree with you. Upon starting MS3 and loading the score, the clefs are gone. Also, when importing the same midi file again, they do not appear anymore. I have no explanation whatsoever, except that originally I batch imported a bunch of midi files in one go, and (to the best of my recollection) deselected clef changes for all of them. I also tried to repeat this whole process, but without success in reproducing the bug.

So, not reproducible at this moment, although I could reproduce it at will the previous time I had the score loaded (via undo). Must be an elusive bug and I can see that you need more info to act on it. Sorry I cannot provide it at the moment.

Secondly, your explanation on "Critical": thank you, and noted. And of course, it is not up to me to decide on the severity, but on the development team. In my defence: the wording "S2 - Critical - The bug prevents the user from doing the intended action. They can’t go further" I found to describe my experience quite well (with the new clefs impossible to remove). I certainly do agree that in the grand scheme of things Critical is too harsh a qualification for this bug.

Status needs info closed

So, closed. And reopen if reproducible in another way or other steps.
And don't forget, it's provided for, to use the MIDI import panel to disable these clefs.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Title Deleting all courtesy clefs introduces new ones, that cannot be removed Deleting all clef changes introduces new clefs, that cannot be removed
Reproducibility Always  

Fair enough. I put you on the wrong track when I spoke of courtesy clefs where I should have said clef changes, as the images clearly show. Sorry for the confusion.
I changed the title to reflect the true nature of the bug. I will update if and when I find a way to reproduce it.