Differnces between "written" and "Concert" tied notes
MS 2 beta Win 8.1
In the medley I am currently arranging I switched between the 'written' screen and the 'concert' screen and noticed that some of the ties notes were suddenly not tied anymore.
I have included screen shots for the bar before letter D but it occurs elsewhere as well.
You will notice that it is not consistent in that not every tied note has been altered.
Any thoughts?
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| medley tied notes as written.png | 35.48 KB |
| medley tied notes at concert pitch.png | 47.7 KB |
Comments
Is it possible this score was begun before the beta using an older nightly build? Significant changes were made in how the transposition facility works, so scores created with older builds are no longer valid and would be expected to show errors like this.
If the score was created from scratch within the beta, then we'd need to see the actual score - not just a picture or it - to have much chance iof understanding what might be going on. But even better would be be if you could remember exactly how/when this happened and provide step-by-step instructions to reproduce the problem with the a brand new score. I realize in this case you probably don't know, but do keep in mind that's always the most helpful. Still, even posting the score as is could possibly be helpful.
In reply to Is it possible this score was by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc
No the score was made entirely inside MS2 Beta (downloaded early to mid September I think).
I've just run it again and the 'error' happens not just with tied quavers to crotchets, but also tied minims to crotchets (see bars 8, 9 & 10 for eg)
Interestingly, it doesn't affect playback so I assume the playback happens 'underneath the hood' and is separate from the score we see.
As far as I recall, all tied notes were created using the 'next required rhythm' (using the number pad) and then the 'SHIFT +'.
Tho' sometimes I copied a phrase (from Alto 2 for eg) and then pasted it (to Tenor 1 for eg) and then altered the pitches where necessary. However I don't think that can be anything to do with it as the Clarinet line was written first (in the woodwinds) and it happens on that line also.
I don't use the nightlies because as far as I understand it, anything created in there will not work when the next version of MS is released. I do hope that is not the case for the Beta!
Thanks again for your interest.
To the team of Musescore elves, I am loving MS2, more power to your collective elbows.
In reply to Score entirely inside MS2 Beta by onscuba
I don't have the score handy, but over the weekend I was working on an arrangement in 3/4 time and had several measures with dotted half notes tied together that I input in "Concert" mode, and then switched the view to look at the instruments in their native key and the tied notes had shifted to different pitches. Very strange.
I'm on a Mac and the entire score was written in MuseScore 2.0 beta 1.
I ended up re-entering the tied notes in the transposed score, and then the "Concert" score shows the incorrect notes. I've attached a pdf showing the "Transposed" score with the tied notes re-entered and correct, and then the "Concert" score showing the incorrect ties.
Very strange.
I hope this helps.
In reply to Score entirely inside MS2 Beta by onscuba
I can confirm the bug in the latest builds - the score is already "corrupted". Not in the sense we often mean where some measure has the wrong number of beats, but in the sense that the concert & transposed pitch for some notes have become out of sync.
We really need to understand *how* this happened - the sequence of events that led to this result - in order to have much chance of solving this. So any insight further anyone can share into this would be most helpful! In the posted Miller Medley score, I see a problem in measure 1 of the 1st trumpet part - the very first two notes. But if I try to create another measure just like that, even in the same staff, it works fine.
One possible clue, although I doubt it will turn out to be related - the first trumpet part shows up differently than the others in the instrument list and in the mxiuer. This makes me wonder if the score was originally created from an older template and then had more instruments added, or something like that?
BTW regarding nightly builds - while builds from months ago would indeed not be trustworthy, any nightly build since the Beta should be as good as or better with respect to compatibility with the eventual release, and there have been *tons* of bug fixes at this point, so I definitely recommend using the nightly builds. However, that said, there are *no guarantees* regarding compatibility with *either* the Beta or Nightly builds.
In reply to I can confirm the bug in the by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc
to quote you:
"This makes me wonder if the score was originally created from an older template and then had more instruments added, or something like that?"
On the off chance you were addressing that remark to me (as opposed to the Musescore Elves), I can tell you that it was the standard Big Band template that came as part of the MS2 Beta package. The only thing I have done to that template is alter the names of the Trumpets and Tbnes by assigning numbers so that I didn't get confused (easily done in my case).
All work has now temporarily stopped on that arrangement until whatever corruption is happening has been fixed. I'm guessing that it could be in the nightlies as well(?)
Incidentally, if I do venture 'to the dark side' and download a nightly, will I be able to import my arrangement without the corruption following it across?
Thanks again
In reply to Hi Marc to quote you: "This by onscuba
As I mention above, working with Nightly builds is at this point better in all ways than working with the beta. But this this is a brand new bug no ine has reported before now, and we still don't know know how to reproduce it, there is very little chance the bug has gone away. Whatever you did that caused this to happen, will probably cause it to happen in the Nightly builds too. Which is why it is so important that you try to figure out how to reproduce this - otherwise, it will be next to impossible to fix.
But now that the corruption is in your score, the Nightly builds will see it just as surely as the Beta does. You can fix the corruption easily enough using either the Beta or Nightly builds by deleting the problem notes and re-entering them.
BTW - the standard Big Band template that comes with MuseScore 2 beta 1 looks *very* different from the score you posted. Different fonts, different instruments, etc. So if you started with that template, you must have made some pretty major changes? The standard big band template already does number the trumpets and trombones, and it uses MuseJazz font. Your score does not use MuseJazz, and it does *not* number the trombones. Pkus it uses different naming for the saxophone staves and generally looks nothing like the big band template. So I'm thinking you may be mis-remembering and you actually started from something else. I doubt that will turn out to be relevant, but you never know.
In reply to As I mention above, working by Marc Sabatella
From within the properties of the text dialogue I changed the font to another one I prefer which is on my computer. Surely that can't have caused the glitch. And in any case, Carneyweb encountered the same problem.
However, I will go back and change the offending notes.
Is it possible for me to send to you the BigBand template from within MS2 that I used just incase there is something amiss?
Oh yes it might be, I've just checked. I'll have a go.
On a separate note ( and I should probably put this elsewhere), when there is either a crescendo hairpin or Diminuendo hairpin, they are very often to almost always preceded or followed by a dynamic marking. It seems to me that it would be help work flow and be more logical to have the Dynamics and Line palettes next to each other.
In reply to From within the properties of by onscuba
I didn't mean to imply that changing text font would cause this problem. I was just questioning whether perhaps you actually did not start from this template for this score at all. Because it isn't just text fonts that are different - naming of staves is different, a number of other settings are different, etc*. If you really did change all those things, then fine. But it *looks* to me like you might have started from soemthing *other* than the template, and if the thing you started from was created in an earlier build, that *could* explain the problem the problem. it also *might* explain what carneyweb is seeing.
I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything; I am just trying to get to the bottom of this. We need to understand the exact series of steps that led to the problem, otherwise it's going to be difficult/impossible to fix.
* For example, in addition to text, check the names of the saxohones: "Alto Sax 1" and "Alto Sax 2" in the template versus "Alto Saxophone" for both in your score, measure numbering turned on for all measures in your score, volta height set much lower in your score than in the template, winged repeats turned on for the templaote but off for your score. The template you posted does look correct, but can you see that your score doesn't resemble that at all? Hence my wondering.
In reply to I didn't mean to imply that by Marc Sabatella
No offense etc has been taken Marc nor did I think it was implied. I'm trying to help (in my bumbling way)
Yes I got the bar numbers to run etc and I had to move the volta height sometimes to avoid the numbers.
I can assure you it was the template (from within my copy of MS2 beta) that I sent to you that I started with.
In reply to Hi Marc to quote you: "This by onscuba
Yep. I had the same problem. I started with the Jazz Combo template and made the following changes:
1) Added a Voice staff at the top
2) Removed the Alto Sax and Trombone
3) Added a Bari Sax right below the Tenor Sax
I tried again, starting from scratch making these same changes. I then went to each of the 3 transposing instruments while in the "Concert" score and created notes that tied from one measure to another. Unfortunately, toggling to "Transposed" score didn't show the problem at this point, so I don't have a repeatable test case. I'll continue to try and come up with a set of steps that cause the problem.
In reply to Yep. I had the same problem. by carneyweb
And to be clear - *if* you are positive you started from a 2.0 Beta or later template or from scratch using a Beta or later build, then you can not worry about trying to reproduce those particular steps. That is, nothing you do in terms of adding staves, changing settings, etc. would possibly be relevant. It will have to be something about the note entry process itself that triggered the problem - some unusual way you are entering the notes or something (since no one else seems to have seen any such problems since maybe February when the last relevant bugs were fixed).
Some things to consider would be:
- are you entering ties from within note entry mode by pressing the tie button / shortcut to enter the second note and tie it?
- are you entering the both notes then going back and entering the tie?
- are the ties being created by entering a note that extends across the barline, so MuseScore has to split the note up for you?
- same but for copy and paste?
- are you using repitch mode?
- are you selecting a passage and then transposing it, either with the arrow keys or with the transpose dialog?
- you entering the notes with concert pitch mode on or off?
- are you using the "J" key to respell notes?
- are you entering notes then changing instruments of the notes you entered?
- are you copying and pasting between instruments of different transpositions?
- are you saving / reloading the score in between the time you create the notes and when you add the ties?
None of these things *should* matter, but my guess is, the bug will turn out to be a result of some special quirky combination of these or similar things that you two are doing.
In reply to And to be clear - *if* you by Marc Sabatella
This seems to be the issue:
- you entering the notes with concert pitch mode on or off?
If I enter the notes with concert pitch OFF and then toggle it ON, it shows the bug.
So, here's a step by step guide on how I can recreate this problem
1) Create a new score from the Jazz Combo template
2) Make sure concert pitch is OFF
3) Enter Note Input mode
4) enter a whole note in the Alto Sax part, and then type a plus to create a tied whole note in the next measure
5) toggle concert pitch to ON
BINGO... the tied note is now incorrect.
Excellent questions Marc!!!!
In reply to I HAVE A REPEATABLE TEST CASE!!! :-) :-) by carneyweb
Glad you have managed to reproduce it, but unfortunately, I still cannot. Are you using the latest nightly build or some other? What does "Help / About" report? Are you sure you are not leaving out any steps? What note are you entering, and how specifically are you entering it? I did the following:
1) new score from jazz combo template, using all default settings (C major, 4/4, 32 bars)
2) make sure concert pitch is off (it should be; that's the default)
3) click measure one of alto sax part
4) type "N 7 A +"
5) click Concert Pitch to turn it on
Result: both notes transpose correctly (the two A's becomes C's)
6) click Concert Pitch again to turn it back off
Result: again, both notes transpose correctly (the two C's become A's again)
In reply to Glad you have managed to by Marc Sabatella
You did exactly what I did, however I was NOT using the latest nightly. I'll try that and see and report back here.
In reply to You did exactly what I did, by carneyweb
Just verified that it's working properly for me in the latest nightly build.
EXCELLENT :-)
- Mike.
In reply to You did exactly what I did, by carneyweb
OK, I can verify that it is broken in the Beta. What's strange is, I don't remember anythig being changed since then that would affect this. So I'm a little nervous that there might still be a problem lurking somewhere. I will keep investigating, but at least that specific series of steps seems to work now in the Nightly builds.
So it seems if you switch to a Nightly build, this problem won't exist in newly created scores - but any scores already created with the Beta will have this problem.
Now that I can reproduce it, I can also suggest a workaround to fix scores that already show this bug, that you *might* like better than fixing notes one by one. Select all, hit down arrow then up (or the reverse). This appears to fix the problem from what I can tell. But it results in all accidentlas being respelled - either as sharps if you press down then up or as flats if you press up then down.