E third octave soprano recorder

• Apr 3, 2015 - 17:09

this note produces no sound when played back and is well within the range of the instrument.


Not sure which octave you mean specifically by "third", but do check to be sure you are using the clef you think you are using. By default, MuseScore uses an octave transposing clef, so notes are actually an octave higher than they at first appear. The "E" three ledger lines above this staff is above the normal range of this instrument, since it is actually a whole octave than that. This is how recorder music is often notated, although I guess some do prefer to notate it at pitch.

Note the *D* above the staff should sound but doesn't in the default soundfont. See also http://musescore.org/en/node/52411, which includes solutions.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

thanks for the response. the new software is excellent and the sound font a major improvement over the last version. i like that some of the notes are played "off-ish" makes it sound a lot less like a machine. there are also many other fine improvements and refinements.

that "E" note in the third octave can be played back when written for tenor recorder which is also in "C" like the soprano so the problem isnt that the program doesnt recognize it as being within range of the instrument

In reply to by chris baron

Tenor recorder uses a different clef, so that same note as written is actually a different pitch. The "E" above the treble-8 staff really is out of range for soprano recorder, since it sounds an octave higher.

If you are still having trouble, please post the specific score you are having problems wth and describe exactly where you see an issue. But again, "E" written three ledger lines above the treble-8 staff is actually an octave higher than that as written on the ordinary treble clef, and is indeed outside the normal range for that instrument. Listen to the playback for other notes and this octave transposition should be clear. But the links provided in previous responses also show you how to get a soundfont that includes higher samples for recorder so that you can write for smaller / higher-pitched members of the family as well.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Dies_Irae.mscz >>48th measure << basically that E note on the tenor is the same note as on the soprano in terms of where it stands in the instrument's range (third octave). if the program judges that that note cant be played on a soprano then it shouldnt be playable on the tenor but it is.

similarly on the alto recorder that note with the same fingering in the third octave is an "A" and the program plays that back too.

In reply to by chris baron

These are Eb7, and as such outside professional range (set by MuseScore), hence colored red. But also outside the samples provided by the soundfont, hence no sound, so check ChuchOrganists reply below. The d7 in the next measure has the same issue, even within the professional range (colored in muddy green)

Maybe we'd need to revisit the limits set by MuseScore, c5-d7 (amateur) and c5-g7 (professional), to match that Wikipedia article (which claims the range to be c2–d4 (g4), add 3 to get to scientific pitch)

So we're looking at 2 different issues here, the range defined in MuseScore's instruments.xml, responsible for the coloring and the ranges available in the soundfont and responsible for playback

In reply to by chris baron

Again *please check the clef*. That fingering chart you are posting is using the standard treble clef rather than the octave transposing clef. It is telling you the same thing we are telling you: the note you have written is *outside* the normal range of this instrument, which stops with the D one octave above a normal trebel clef. They indicate this extra octave using the 8va sign, MuseScore by default does it using the octave transposing clef, but we are all telling you the same thing.

In reply to by chris baron

Again, check the clef. The sporano recorder is using the clef with the little 8 above it, meaning it sounds an octave higher than written. That Eb - three ledger lines above the staff - is definitely outside the normal range of the instrument, which tops out at D. I don't doubt there is some way to get that sound with something akin to an altissimo fingering on a reed instrument, but it's definitely not "well within the range" - it's the very very extreme of the range.

As for the tenor, I think you are again off by an octave because you are misreading the clefs. The tenor recorder is in regluar treble clef, not the octave trasnposing version of the clef (no little "8" above the clef). So the top space Eb shown for the tenor recorder in that measure is a full *two octaves* lower than the top "Eb" in the soprano recorder part. That lower Eb for the tenor recorder is indeed well within its range, hence, it is not colored red or even "dark yellow" (aka "muddy green").

As for playback, note MuseScore doesn't care about range. It plays back if the soundfont has the note, and doesn't otherwise. The same sound is being for tenor as for soprano bewcause General MIDI doens't define a separate tenor recorder sound. So MuseScore will happily allow the tenor to play notes that are well outside its range, because it's actually using the same sound as the soprano recorder. As fart as playback is concerned, the tenor recorder and soprano recorder will have the same usable range - which is to say, whatever the "Recorder" range is in the soundfont you are currently using.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

the soprano recorder uses that treble clef transposed down one octave so the lowest C is on the second line below the ledger. that C up to the next C is one octave and that C up to the next one is the second octave and that one lies on the 2 line above the ledger. E (flat) is on the line above that , C-D-E. so that E flat is in the third octave and is within the range of the soprano recorder. it is thumb hole half covered and 2nd and 3rd hole covered with plenty of air pressure.


In reply to by chris baron

The total *normal* range of the soprano recorder, like most (all?) other recorders, is just over two octaves. There is no "third octave" except for the C# and D. See http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/recorder/rec_bas_3.html from the same site you keep quoting - this is the correct chart for understanding the *normal* range of the instrument.

As I said, there are doubtless special "altissimo" type of technique that can allow extremely advanced players to produces tones higher than this, and I guess that is what the chart you are posting is showing - but notice is is labeled "alternate", and it is definitely *not* within the normal range of the instruments.

In any case, if you want these notes to sound even though they are outside the normal range of the instrument and only playable by advanced players means of these special alternate fingering, then you will simply need to download the soundfont we have already provides links to, or use the Mixer switch the sound to something like Piccolo that does provide these sounds.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Wow, I just checked the charts for other instruments on that site. Same story there - the "Basic Fingering" chart is the normal professional range. The "Alternate Fingers" go into some crazy extended altissimo ranges for clarinet and saxophoens (the instruments I am most familiar with. I think they should put big giant disclaimers on those tables to avoid misleading newcomers into thinking these are notes normally considered playable!

In reply to by chris baron

Yeah, but - ask any professional recorder, clarinet, or saxophone player about the notes in those "alternate" fingering charts that go above the "basic" range. Many will simply laugh, others will say, yeah, those are things we work on in the prviacy of our homes but would hope no one would ever actually *write* music in those ranges. And in most cases, playing those notes in fast passages or at anything *but* extreme dynamic levels is physically out of the question.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

i think you are misunderstanding "alternate" fingerings. there are alternate fingers for the same notes in the second octave which facilitate ornamentation.

alternate fingerings means that there is more than one way to play the same note not that the note false outside the usual range of the instrument.

In reply to by chris baron

No doubt, the alternate fingerings *for notes that overlap the basic range* would be mastered by any pro, for all of the instruments I mentioned.

But you are mistaken if you think just because a fingering chart on that site showns alternate fingerings that go beyond this range for a given instrument, that this means those notes are considered part of the normal range of the instrument. It just is not so. Professional players of any of these instruments would tell you the same, and professional composers know better than to write music that exceepds these bounds except when they deliberately want the very extreme sounds thus produced and know in advance that their music will only be performed by musicians who have mastered these extremes.

I don't know what else to say on this subject, other than to say, if you really want to write music that goes outside the normal range of any of these instruments, you are welcome to do do, but you might have to play games with soundfonts and/or substitute sounds as we have suggested in order to get the computer playback to work. if you know the professional musicians who will play your music are compfortable playing outside the normal range of the instruments, then you should be OK there too. But still, it's good to know what the normal limits are, and to be aware when you are choosing to exceed them.

In reply to by chris baron

As an ex baroque recorder player I respectfully suggest that you have things wrong here.

A soprano (descant) recorder is an octave transposing instrument with the lowest actual pitch of Soprano C (C5) It is then easily capable of being played for around 2 octaves above this although the highest notes of the second octave require cross fingering. A third octave is possible on specialist instruments again using cross fingering, but the very highest normal actual pitch possible is D7 - you won't be able to get above that using a bog standard Dolmetsch or Schott recorder!

This is the professional range given in MuseScore.

At some point it was decided to assign an octave transposing clef to the soprano recorder to save adding transposition information.

The highest instrument in the recorder family capable of playing actual pitch middle C (C4) is the tenor recorder.

I suspect you may have been misled by the fact the recorder family play an octave higher than written.

In reply to by ChurchOrganist

So you'd think, but check out the alternate fingering chart posted - it does indeed show a full third octave, all the way up to the C three octaves above the lowest C :-) (C8 using the notation system that has the lowest playable note being C5).

I'm tempted to dig out one of my old recorders to see if these sound as terrible as I imagine they do...

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

You need a specialist recorder to get them. I forget the details, but they were a product of an Italian recorderplayers and maker of the 15th century, who was able to perfect a way of getting the 3rd octave.

Incidentally on my Pearwood Moeck Baroque Alto (treble) recorder I was able to get well into the third octave, and was regularly playing up to C7. Past that was just too risky to do in public, and anyway the supplied fingering chart stopped at C7!

Still 2 and a half octaves isn't bad :)

In reply to by ChurchOrganist

you can play those notes on any plastic recorder, even i can do it. check the chart, play the notes and give it lots of air and they are very clean but your ears will ring.

the software wont play a D in that octave either but it will play a C# which is usually the note that is considered unplayable since you have to cover the bell with your knee to get it and that can take your front teeth out with it.

In reply to by chris baron

As I said, I have no doubt it is technically possible. But again, hopefully after reading about this more, you will agree that this is well beyond the *normal* range of the instrument. Same with the "Alternate" fingering charts for the other woodwinds on the site.

So anyhow, if you want to hear playback for notes outside the normal ranges of instruments for which no samples exist, you can follow the advice we've given you - download another soundfont that does provide samples for these upper extremes (links were already provided), or change to a different sound within the current soundfont like Piccolo using the Mixer.

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