dynamic + hairpin
Hi, I sometimes want to combine a dynamics indication, like 'fp' with a hairpin below a long note. Unfortunatatelly it requires a lot of extra tweeking to make it look good.
Just adding them under the note without tweeking looks like below. The left part of the hairpin extends over the dynamics:
This can, of course be fixed by just moving the left end of the hairpin:
This is not that difficult to do and works fine until you generate the parts. Then you have to redo this in every part, since layout modifications are not copied to the parts.
An alternative is to add some hidden notes where the left end of the hairpin can be anchored:
This, I guess will transfer better to the parts, but it is much more work to do this in the score.
Is there another way I have missed, for doing this? Or would it make sense to have some way of having the second picture above happen automatically?
Thanks for a great program!
Andreas
Comments
Normally, you would start the hairpin with the note *after* the note to which the dynamic is applied, so the default layout is designed to work well in that case. It's really only the special case of fp and crescendo over a single long note where you need the hairpin and dynamic on the same note. And indeed, in these special cases, adjusting manually is the way to go. It's been suggested that someday we do automatic collision detection of these cases, and some day that might happen.
In reply to Normally, you would start the by Marc Sabatella
OK, I understand.
An alternative to "automatic collision detection" could be to have a variant of a hairpin which would include an initial dynamics indication, or if you think this is only relevant for fp, a special hairpin with an leading fp. (but I think i have seen 'sfz' used in a similar way too).
In reply to OK, I understand. An by AndreasKågedal
Clever idea! As it happens, for the next release we have added a variation on the hairpin that includes text, so you can have "cresc." followed by a dashed line rather than an actual hairpin. In principle this could be used the basis for an element like you describe. Definitely worth considering.
Although the hairpin appears in the Lines palette, it does not have all the properties of a line. If you could create a line that looks like a hairpin (i.e. a hairpin with line properties) then you could allow it to have start and end text or the little circle thingy (crescendo dal niente or al niente) that you occasionally see at the start or end of a hairpin.
In reply to Although the hairpin appears by underquark
Internally, a hairpin *is* a line, and that's what the new code I mentioned relies on. Also, the circle top is already supported via the Inspector. So we could easily do this, I think. Might not be the right answer, though. Seems it would better for the dynamic to be a true dynamic and not text buried in a line. But as I said, worth considering.
In reply to Internally, a hairpin *is* a by Marc Sabatella
Yes, to have visual as well as playback function I see how you'd want the actual starting dynamic (the enum value but also the text) and also the end dynamic/velocity and whether to show the starting dynamic and/or the end dynamic or a symbol etc., so a hairpin becomes a complex thing.
See feature request #81121: Dynamics and Hairpins overlap.
Just wondering: did nobody ever encounter cresc. between 2 adjacent notes (be it quater of half notes), first being e.g. p, the second f, and there is a cresc in between?
I am asking because it is mentioned that the current functionality is "designed to work with most cases" (or similar). It seems we have different "most cases" situations :-)
Anyway, if there is chance to vote, I'd vote for the automatic, the "Sibelius" way of placing dynamics and hairpins...
In reply to Just wondering: did nobody by rowild
I doubt we have different "msot cases" situations. Sure, the situation you describe exists, but it clearly is nowhere near the majority of all crescendos. Still, sure, it might be nice to someday do that sort of automatic collision avoidance, along with dozens of other types.
In reply to I doubt we have different by Marc Sabatella
Hmmm... just looking to various scores of the classical and romantic repertoire. There are so many cresc. in the strings and also woodwinds and brass sections that simply do not start "on a following note", but right after the dynamic expression...
I am not sure, if the current solution should be the one that is measured upon. Judging from my own workflow and experience in the meantime, I have to admit that I wish MuseScore would handle it "more magically" (again: like Sibelius does...)
In reply to Hmmm... just looking to by rowild
I could not agree more. It is very common of crescendi/diminuendi to start on the note with a dynamic marking--the marking put there to indicate the level from which the crescendo starts. If this happens in a passage of sixteenths it is not a problem and starting the hairpins on the second or even third note works fine. But for larger values, especially if there are shorter notes somewhere else in the score it will have to include the first note right at the piano of forte marking.
I would not worry about that were it not for the still existent and (as far as i know) unresolved issue of wandering hairpins. Relocating them requires setting them all to default and then manually correcting all the ones that overlap a dynamic marking. Doing this more than once in a largish score is quite a bit of work.
could I request addition of a full hairpin <> as a single item.
this could then be dropped onto a single note. It's quite common to put these over a semibreve, and it's hard work to do it with the 2 items (cresc and decresc) and constantly alter the location and re-jig the parts.
Doesn't matter if it doesn't affect velocity, this is for notation, not synthesis.
Could be used over multiple notes as well, it's a bit of a pain when moving the separate ones to keep them aligned.
In reply to could I request addition of a by Adrien de Croy
This exists in the advanced palettes (articulation and ornaments). Most commonly used over a single note. If you want it over multiple notes used hairpins.
In reply to This exists in the advanced by mike320
I see the kinda squashed diamond thing but if I drop it on a note, it won't stretch over the whole bar.
Is that the one you meant? It's labelled "volume swell"
I want a semibreve with hairpins under it, with a gap between the < and the > as if I placed a cresc and dim separately. And it needs to stretch over the whole bar.
Is it possible to create one's own glyphs?
In reply to I see the kinda squashed by Adrien de Croy
Sure, as graphics (PNG, SVG, etc). See the Handbook under "Custom palette". But really, you're better off not trying to do that *or* use manual adjustments, as both methods are too dependent on the size of the measure and won't survive layout changes well. Instead, it would be best to use invisible rests in another voice to attach the hairpins to. Not ideal at all from a usability standpoint, but it's a better solution in the long run. At least until a better one is implemented.
I'm lukewarm on the idea of a single <> hairpin. I get the need, but what if you want to tweak where the change happens - like if you want to show 3/4 of the duration < and only the last 1/4 as >? I guess we could introduce another handle for that. But maybe it's better to consider these as separate hairpins but make it easier to have a hairpin start or end somewhere other than an existing note. We could, for example, use the same technique we use for chord symbols, for instance, with space bar set up as a shortcut to extend the hairpin one beat at a time under long notes.
In reply to Sure, as graphics (PNG, SVG, by Marc Sabatella
Yeah I'd be content if the positions of the hairpins were based on beats rather than notes.
It would also be great if they could be copy/pasted. So often in a score the hairpins are duplicated through a great many parts.
I don't recall ever having seen a swell on say only the last 3 beats of a semibreve. You could just drag the start for this. In the end, since it's a single note, and MS doesn't modulate velocity of single notes anyway, it wouldn't be audible in synthesis anyway.
In reply to Yeah I'd be content if the by Adrien de Croy
Hairpins actually *can* be copied/pasted, a couple of different ways. And there are other tricks for dealing with hairpins across multiple parts.
First, hairpins come along for the ride when copying/pasting ranges of notes. So when dealing with parts that are substantially similar - exactly the same, or at least the same rhythm - you can create one part, then copy and paste it to the others. If the notes differ, use the repitch mode to change the pitches.
Also, if you use the Explode function to write homophonic passages, hairpins are propagated to the other staves.
Then there is the little known Cltr+Shift+Drag trick, which can be used to copy hairpins and a bunch of other things that otherwise don't respond to ordinary copy/paste. This is the shortcut normally used to create custom palettes - it clones the target element and allows you to drag it to the palette. But you can actually drop it anywhere you could normally drop an object of that type.
Finally, there is a shortcut for entering a hairpins on several parts simultaneously: just select the range you want the hairpin to apply to, including all relevant staves, then hit the shortcut (< or >) or double click the palette icon. A hairpin will be created for each staff in the selection. This works for all line types.
In reply to could I request addition of a by Adrien de Croy
I apologize for my previous comment, it is insane. The hairpins overlapping Dynamic markings are crazy. There is no reason in a primarily notation software that we would need to adjust a hairpin to avoid a dynamic. They are EVERYWHERE!
In reply to I apologize for my previous by mike320
Relax, man. MuseScore 3 is coming. Be patient, and all will be well.
In reply to Relax, man. MuseScore 3 is by Isaac Weiss
heh, need to put something in my coffee...
any ETA on 3? I tried it a while back, had some issues so I had to go back to 2.
In reply to heh, need to put something in by Adrien de Croy
Since we have boundless optimism, we hope by the end of 2017, but since we are not soothsayers, all we can state with certainty is that it will be ready when it's ready. But it will be ready a little bit sooner if you can spend some time with it and report back on the issues you find.
In reply to Since we have boundless by Isaac Weiss
If you put together a VS2015 build environment for it I could contribute.
In reply to If you put together a VS2015 by Adrien de Croy
Why VS2015? QtCreator and minGW are perfectly up to the task (on Windows), see https://musescore.org/en/developers-handbook/compilation/compile-instru…
In reply to Why VS2015? QtCreator and by Jojo-Schmitz
because I use VS2015 and can be productive with it now. Having to learn a whole new dev environment is a barrier to entry.
So the reason isn't minGW, it's me.
I understand why the dev environment is as it is (x-platform etc), but that just sets me back a heap of time.
Anyway, you never know, someone may have put together a VS solution for this already. It's been done on other O-S projects (e.g. OpenSSL)
One thing though, VS2015 has a substantial free version, more complete than previous versions. It's clear that MS wants to get people using its tools more than Ballmer wanted to, and targeting not just windows. It's a great IDE.
In reply to because I use VS2015 and can by Adrien de Croy
enabling us to use VS201x is on the agenda.
In reply to heh, need to put something in by Adrien de Croy
3 is not even close to being ready. Don't use it unless you want to trash all your work in it.
In reply to I apologize for my previous by mike320
no prob.
Yeah I am constantly moving dynamics to avoid notes, or hairpins to avoid dynamics.
the worst is when you need to move a dynamic out of the way of a note to see it, and it jumps to another anchor point..... sigh.
In reply to no prob. Yeah I am constantly by Adrien de Croy
Does using the inspector to move your dynamic help? That doesn't change the anchor point, and you can select all dynamics that are at the start of a hairpin first, then adjust the position for them all at once.
In reply to Does using the inspector to by jeetee
From a user's point of view, using the inspector does help some. You don't want to select every decrescendo and set the start to 1 space, this will make some of them look bad or wrong. What I sometimes do is after entering a page, click select each hairpin with a dynamic and change the start to 1 space (or whatever looks good) This is not too bad if there are about 10 or fewer instruments, once you get above that, there is too much scrolling involved and you hope to don't accidentally click somewhere and unselect everything and have to start over.
I do realize that 3.0 is somewhere in the future, but as the blog updates says, I'll be ready when it's ready. If this is less than a year, I'll be surprised. I hope I'm surprised.
In reply to no prob. Yeah I am constantly by Adrien de Croy
Don't drag dynamics - or the arrow keys. Or Inspector, but arrows keys are easier. Ctrl+right/left (twice) is a simple and effective method of dealing with this.
In reply to Don't drag dynamics - or the by Marc Sabatella
I do use that when there's enough notes, but if you want a cresc + decresc on a single whole note, what do you do.
In reply to Don't drag dynamics - or the by Marc Sabatella
Ctrl-right arrow at the beginning of a hairpin is identical to increase vertical offset 1 space. The inspector lets you do multiple hairpins.
In reply to I apologize for my previous by mike320
Normally, though, you don't need to. Simply start the hairpin on the note *after* the dynamic, or end it on the note before. It's only the cases where this is not feasible - eg, a hairpin on a single note - where you need to do manual adjustments. And it's normally a fixed adjustment (eg, 2sp) that is pretty safe in the presence of layout changes. So not as bad as it could be. But indeed, should be better in MuseScore 3.
In reply to Normally, though, you don't by Marc Sabatella
Actually it is quite normal that one has this problem. If the first note of your crescendo is a quarter or longer you can't start the hairpin on the following note (you can but then you need to move the tip of the hairpin to the left).
Usually two spaces is enough to accommodate the dynamic marking (if it is in two or more letters like mp, fp, sfp etc. three spaces may be preferable).
I find however that a lot of things in a score need manual adjusting (e.g. beam angles, vertical placement of dynamic or expression markings including hairpins, sometimes slurs especially at the end of lines) so I go over the score at the final stage and fix all this and adjust the hairpins as part of that job. That way it is not too onerous.
I find it useful to have keyboard shortcuts for both hairpins so I never need to copy/paste them.
This will be much easier with version 3 I hear, so this is temporary.
In reply to Actually it is quite normal by azumbrunn
My point is you don't *need* to move the tip of the crescendo next to the first note. That's a personal choice, but if you consult the literature, you'll see that starting the crescendo on the llnexr more - or really, just about anywhere - is perfectly common / acceptable. So it really does work to simply start on the next note and not adjust. That's a battle you don't have to choose to fight.