concert pitch for guitar
I noticed that the "concert pitch" button doesn't transpose the guitar score to the sounded octave. Guitar and bass are kind of unique in that they are concert C instruments but read in a different octave. This would be a great feature. Thanks for any help.
Comments
That is why either are usually notated in clefs with a little 8 below.
Maybe that clef should change with the concert key button.
I think Marc Sabatella is working on this or at least something very similar, see https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/1440
In reply to That is why either are by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, they are already "transposed" in the use of the clef, so no additional action is required (either by the user or by us).
However, it did occur to me while working on this that it would now be possible to have guitar and bass render in regular treble clef but use treble-8 as the concertClef. That way printed parts wouldn't need the little 8's. I think the world has gotten accustomed to this over the past 25 years or so that notation programs have defaulted to this way of working, but I suppose some might welcome not having the little 8's by default?
In reply to Yes, they are already by Marc Sabatella
Same for tenor?
In reply to Same for tenor? by Jojo-Schmitz
Maybe., Most scores for tenor use either bass clef or treble-8 - I don't know that I've actually seen one using plain treble. Where I've definitely seen guitar scores that do. But I'm not hugely experienced in either field. If there is one way of presenting either instrument that people seem to agree is the best, it's easy enough to make it happen now, but right now I'm sure if there is such a consensus.
In reply to Maybe., Most scores for by Marc Sabatella
In classical vocal scores the tenor part is normally written in treble clef with the 8 to indicate that actual sound is an octave down. Where the tenor part is written in the bass clef along with the bass part (usually to save paper/cost) we don't like it, as in most pieces it means our line is mainly above the stave - we can do it, but it's definitely not in our comfort zone!
In reply to In classical vocal scores the by Mac B
FWIW, I just wanted to add, that for opera there are at least three common clefs used for tenor voices:
1) Modern vocal scores of Mozart's operas and most German language operas mostly use the simple treble clef.
2) Italian operas (Verdi and Puccini at least) often use a combined treble-and-tenor clef (I add an image). I don't think MuseScore even has it: NOT FOUND: 01
3) Vocal scores of new works sometimes use the treble clef with the 8.
In reply to FWIW, I just wanted to add, by heuchi
Tenor clefs have been discussed at length here and in the thread / issues linked in it, here and here .
Note that the only tenor clefs with follow some kind of 'regular' pattern are either the real tenor clef (C clef on fourth line) or the treble 8va bass clef. All the other are only graphic variants of the latter, used in some areas and/or in some epoch.
In reply to That is why either are by Jojo-Schmitz
I understand the issue with the little 8, but I still think that it would just be a cool functionality for a button that basically doesn't have a use for guitar notation anyway. For me, it would be really useful if the button changed it to regular treble clef and concert pitch.
Most jazz guitarists, for example, read most things at concert pitch, transposing back up the octave. It would be cool to be able to see it that way and jive with the tab. I guess you can easily hack around this on the user end by just using another treble clef instrument in the first place. I don't know...
In reply to I understand the issue with by matt.guitarteacher
All you need to do is change the clef manually - just drag the clef you want to your score. If you drag a clef while concert pitch is on, it won't affect the clef with concert pitch off, and vice versa. So if you prefer to see regular treble clef while in concert pitch mode, all you need to do is turn concert pitch mode on and drag the clef there.
In my experience with printed guitar music, at least in the USA, the treble clef without the 8 is used far more commonly than the version with the 8. Especially in non-classical guitar music, but in many cases for classical guitar as well, and in guitar magazines and websites, the music is shown written an octave higher than sounding but using the "normal" treble clef.
I have tried using a normal treble clef and then transposing in the score, but it messes up the linkage with linked TAB staves.
I think that many guitarists would find it very useful to be able to easily create guitar instruments with or without linked TAB staves that use this common idiom of having the built-in octave transposition.
FWIW, many guitarists read music but have had no formal musical training. Seeing the 8 would make no sense to them, and providing scores with the 8 would not be accepted by a number of publications.
I would like to request a separate clef that included the transposition but hid the 8. (Call it a "guitar treble clef" perhaps). It would also be great to have prebuilt guitar instruments that used this clef.
The difficulty of creating guitars that comform to this idiom is the main reason I do not use MuseScore for my guitar scores, and do not recommend it to other guitarists, though I do recommend MuseScore to other instrumentalists. You guys do good work.
Thanks for considering this request.
In reply to In my experience with printed by bobzawalich
The fact that making guitar a transposing instrument (by an octave) screws up tab seems a bug to me. Once fixed no Special 'guitar treble clef' would be needed, just another (set of) templates.
In reply to The fact that making guitar a by Jojo-Schmitz
"The fact that making guitar a transposing instrument (by an octave) screws up tab seems a bug to me."
Well, I agree that it may look like a bug, but I am not sure it really is. The question is that, if one of the linked staves is set as transposing by one octave, the other staff linked to it is set the same! You may try with two standard linked staves too and see by yourself.
So, in the std + tab setup, if the std staff is set to treble clef (with no down 8) and transp. 1 octave down, the tab staff, being linked to it, receives the same setup, and displays the notes one octave down too!
It seems to me this to be a problem with the concept of linkage, not with tab's.
Any suggestion?
In reply to "The fact that making guitar by Miwarre
maybe a (linked) tab staff should ignore transposioning? After all tab is about the fingering, and that is what transpositioning on a normal staff is all about?
In reply to maybe a (linked) tab staff by Jojo-Schmitz
Well, it cannot, as capo is a kind of transposition; in fact, earlier this year I had to work on transposition support on TAB (possibly adding it entirely, I do not remember the details) for a request about capo's (there should be some track on the forums / issue tracker).
In reply to maybe a (linked) tab staff by Jojo-Schmitz
In the case of links between score and parts (standard staves), there is a problem in that changes to transposition are *not* linked but the TPC values themselves are, creating TPC corruption. See #62416: Changes to staff transposition (and other properties) not reflected in linked parts. We definitely need to come up with a good solution here.
The only reason I didn't fix this issue immediately upon filing it is that I was concerend about the tab case. I knew there had been some discussion / work on having transposition in tab staves work to indicate capo somehow, but I never knew how that actually worked. Seems now is a good time to really figure these issues out and hopefully solve them both.
In reply to In the case of links between by Marc Sabatella
As I already observed here , I believe it is useful to separate issues with updating existing links and issues with links which should be there in the first place but are not (or vice versa).
The point here whether a property (octave transposition) should be carried or not across linked staves and, if yes, how. Until this is sorted out, dealing with link update issues at either side of the link is largely useless.
Anyway, as far as I remember, transposition in TAB (I mean, 'regular' non-octave transposition, as octave transposition is managed differently internally) has been the topic of some issues early this year, like #47526: TABs do not (properly?) support transposition and #48051: [Guitar Pro] GTP scores with capo/transposition imported wrongly?, both of them reported as solved. In absence of more reports, I am inclined to believe that transposition is TAB is working.
In reply to As I already observed here, I by Miwarre
I have no doubt that transposition in tab is working as some expect, because I haven't heard complaints. I'd love to see a good explanation of what *is* expected, though, to make sure a) I can document it well and b) any changes we make don't break it. Also c) if there is room for improvement, we consider doing so.
In reply to I have no doubt that by Marc Sabatella
It may not be tranposing that is the problem here, but, as you said, the wrong TPC values
If transpositioning gets changed, I'd not expect to have to change string data too
In reply to I have no doubt that by Marc Sabatella
"I'd love to see a good explanation of what *is* expected": me too!!!
From discussions like this one (among other), it seems to me that expectations do vary, partly because the notational practices vary and partly because of different needs and use cases. So, chances are we will end up with several explanations of what is expected, without a clear 'winner'...
In reply to "I'd love to see a good by Miwarre
In the PR I'm currently working on, it sees I'd need to modify the string data for that "Guitar (Treble Clef) for Tablature to work properly (i.e. show the same 'fingering' as the 'normal' G8va Clef Guitar).
I think this is a workaround for a bug in how tablature deals with transpositioning.
I guess the string data needs to get transposed too, somehow?
Is there any transposing instrument that supports tablature?
In reply to In my experience with printed by bobzawalich
1) "In my experience with printed guitar music, at least in the USA, the treble clef without the 8 is used far more commonly than the version with the 8."
It is very difficult to know which clef is the most used nowadays (regular treble clef, or treble clef 8vb).
I just checked again. Among US publishers (Hal Leonard, Mel Bay, GSP eg), I meet the two clefs in differents books. (To support my words, I own the exact references if you want.) But it is possible that the treble clef is more frequent in your country.
That said, I will not go into the counting of my library to see who wins! No time for this! :)
Ditto among the European publishers (Schott, Henry Lemoine, etc.), or often, if not all the time, from the same publisher, the use of these clefs seems extremely changeable. Sometimes, it's even a little funny, you have both clefs in the same collection...
For instance, Schott, in a work in four volumes ("Romantic Guitar Anthology" /Jens Franke arranger ): the first volume is in treble clef. The three following volumes are in treble clef 8vb!
2) "FWIW, many guitarists read music but have had no formal musical training. Seeing the 8 would make no sense to them, and providing scores with the 8 would not be accepted by a number of publications."
In my experience, people little trained musically and the students, young and less young, do not ever notice this clef! Simply. And when at last they see it and they ask the question, it is a good and easy way to approach teaching of the transposition :)
However, I fully understand and respect your views and your preference.
So, we have a workaround that achieves the desired result, both with standard staff and linked staves Standard / TAB
And so, you will can recommend warmly now MuseScore to other instrumentalists ! :)
3) How to do:
- For the standard staff: click-right on the staff -> Staff Properties -> Play transposition -> Change octave: 0 to 1, and tick "Down" -> Ok
- For Tab in linked staves, you have to edit the strings, so: Right-click on the Tab -> Staff properties -> Edit String Data -> Edit string: ie E5 (instead of E4), B4 instead of B3, and so on: G4/G3, D4/D3, A3/A2, E3/E2 -> Ok
To help you, I have prepared these templates that you can reuse it at will. Moreover, I will place it in my own templates folder!
1) Template Guitar Treble Clef.mscz
2) Template Guitar treble clef + linked Tab.mscz
In reply to 1) "In my experience with by cadiz1
For tenor, string bass, guitar the 8bassa, and for recorder the 8alta are acoustically true.
Couldn't the inspector offer the possibility to make the 8 invisible ?, the result being included in a personal palette
In reply to For tenor, string bass, by robert leleu
Why? That's the puprose of being able to the transpositioning of an instrument. So there's no Need at all to hide the 8 (or 15, for that matter). If there weren't that bug with tablature (but thanks to @cadiz1 with a good workaround)
In reply to 1) "In my experience with by cadiz1
Thanks very much for producing these templates. However, when I copy these to my template folder and create scores, the notation staves have"8-clefs" and the music in the linked tab staff is in the wrong octave. (please see screenshot attached). Am I doing something wrong?
My interest in these instruments is to be able to recommend MuseScore to people with little experience with notation or notation software who are just looking for an easy way to produce good looking guitar scores. So it would be helpful to have "8-less" templates like these available as standard templates, and to have the ability to add a new guitar to a score with an "8-less" clef and a tab staff that would not require editing the staff types.
Thanks very much for your assistance with this!
Bob
In reply to Thanks very much for by bobzawalich
Hmm, indeed. opening the file directly and it looks OK, but using it as a template and it doesn't work as intended. Another bug? It is just the clef though, so just drag a 'normal' treble clef onto the 1st measure
In reply to Hmm, indeed. opening the file by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks again for trying to help. Dragging a treble clef onto the score will of course cause the notes to be lowered by an octave so it is not a solution.
I am really trying to find a simple and bulletproof way for a newcomer to create guitar scores that do not use the clef with the 8. If it is not possible, that is fine, but if there were a straightforward way to do this that did not require a lot of changing settings, it would be a lot less likely to scare off the type of user I am trying to help.
Again, the help is much appreciated.
Bob
In reply to Thanks again for trying to by bobzawalich
Indeed, as template, the treble clef is not preserved. So, as said, just change the clef at opening. Or more simply, as I often do (because I own a lot of templates ...), you have only to classify these files to a folder on your desktop to open them quickly, and reuse them at will as before. And there, the treble clef is present as expected at the opening.
You said: "Dragging a treble clef onto the score will of course cause the notes to be lowered by an octave so it is not a solution. "
![template.jpg]( "template.jpg")
I don't see that here for now (after opening the template and after changing for the treble clef)
EDIT: ah, perhaps misunderstood. When you say "dragging a treble clef onto the score will or course cause the notes to be lowered by an octave" , it was a general "observation" before the use of these templates?
You said: "I am really trying to find a simple and bulletproof way for a newcomer to create guitar scores that do not use the clef with the 8."
As already said, for an easy solution and efficient workaround, temporary maybe, place simply these files on your desktop. I use myself all the time this way. More faster: I drag and drop my file onto the icon of MuseScore. That's all.
In reply to Indeed, as template, the by cadiz1
Thanks again. I am attaching a score that I created by newing the file from a template. I typed the letters cdefgabc and got the notes in the treble staff that correspond to the octave from middle C up. In the Tab staff, the notes appear an octave lower. If I then drag a normal treble clef to the treble staff, the notes drop an octave. They are then in sync with the TAB staff, but everything is an octave lower than I want.
Is it correct to assume that if I type "c" into a guitar staff it will interpret that as middle C?
I agree that it is possible to put these templates on the desktop and drag them, but this really bypasses the UI, does it not? Would it be acceptable to have to drag every piano instrument from a file on the desktop to have it show up as desired?
As I have tried to show, guitar instruments in printed music with treble staves are not strange outliers, but are very common. What I would like, and I can present this as a separate feature request if that is more appropriate, would be to have such instruments be available the same way other common instruments are, so that, especially for users who are likely to give up if things are not easy, it is just easy to create such an instrument and get on with entering music.
Anyway, I do appreciate your time and help with this, and of course also appreciate the work spent on MuseScore, which I think is an amazing piece of software.
thanks
bob
In reply to Thanks again. I am attaching by bobzawalich
File: A guitar_treble_clef_from_template-1.mscz
In reply to Thanks very much for by bobzawalich
I would guess that "people with little experience with nottion or notation software who are just looking for an easy way to produce good looking guitar scores" won't share your objection to the octave clef - why would they? And in any event, you can easily avoid the need for the octave clef if you don't use linked tablature. If you want tablature, simply copy and paste when done rather than rely on the link feature, which is what many do anyhow just to get more control.
That isn't to say it isn't worth finding a solution, jut that I really can't see how the average user you describe would have reason to reject MuseScore over this.
In reply to I would guess that "people by Marc Sabatella
But no, the fact that my friend might not recognize that the octave clef is not what people will expect is not the problem. The problem is that they will use the software I recommended and give the music to someone who *will* recognize that something is not what they were expecting, and that person will ask why this is the way it is, and my poor friend will have no idea why it is different. (And it will not be trivial to change it either).
I am looking for something that will avoid the problem. I am looking for something that will produce good results out of the box that my friend will not have to explain, especially when he does not understand the subtleties of clefs with 8s underneath them.
People ask me for music software recommendations fairly often. I can recommend MuseScore to friends who play the harp or to fiddlers, and I have, and they have seemed to be quite happy with it. But I don't want to have to do a lot of hand holding and initial setup to set someone up with something that should be simple to use. I don't want to steer them to software that requires them to have to unlink the tablature or to create separate files on the desktop and drag them rather than using File > New like they would for any other instrument. The basic stuff should be simple.
I want to recommend something that is easy and produces beautiful output, and makes it easy for them to turn their music into scores. I want to suggest something which they will not have to explain to the person they give the music to. I was hoping this would be MuseScore, but if it does not work out, it is my problem, not yours. I will just try to find something else I can recommend.
But I am grateful for your time and for the workarounds you have offered. They may prove useful sometime. Much appreciated.
In reply to But no, the fact that my by bobzawalich
No hand holding needed, just a simple sentence: "That little 8 below the clef is how music for guitar is normally written, just ignore it and be done with it."
In reply to No hand holding needed, just by Jojo-Schmitz
Couldn't Musescore offer two "guitars key", musically identical, pne showing the 8, the other not. With a pop-up windows for te second one, saying "attention this key is in fact a guitar key".....
In reply to Couldn't Musescore offer two by robert leleu
Why? We do have both clefs and can create score, also for guitar, with either, using proper trnspositioning, so I don't see any sense in this. OK, there may be bugs taht make in neccessary to modify string data and to copy in the treble clef again when using a template, but we should rather fix those than to add a special clef, IMHO
In reply to Why? We do have both clefs by Jojo-Schmitz
Aha! Found a new workaround that works this time as a template :)
The trick was to create a lute score which, itself, is originally "written" in regular treble clef.
Then, normal procedure in Play transposition + instrument change (guitar) in Staff properties + Edit String Data, I pass the details.
And it works fine, here in any case!
- New Guitar Template + Linked Tab.mscz
And of course same idea for a Guitar template, standard staff only, and with Treble clef. Works well too!
- New template guitar Treble clef.mscz
In reply to Why? We do have both clefs by Jojo-Schmitz
We could add cadiz1's latest templates and/or add a "Guitar (treble clef)" to the list of instruments. That would IMHO make way more sense than adding a special clef
In reply to We could add cadiz1's latest by Jojo-Schmitz
Indeed. It seems you found the best solution....
In reply to We could add cadiz1's latest by Jojo-Schmitz
I'm ok with a new instrument Guitar (Treble clef) (in the all instruments category). Anyone want to make a PR and verify that it works if a linked tablature is added?
For the template, the ottava clef seems to be more modern and musically right so I guess it's better to keep it like it is.
In reply to I'm ok with a new instrument by [DELETED] 5
I'll do a PR. And my suggestion wasn't to replace but to add templates
In reply to I'll do a PR. And my by Jojo-Schmitz
This is great. Thanks you very much for considering this.
One question: will there be shipped templates for Guitar(Treble clef) and Guitar (Treble clef) + linked tab?
And if you have a score with other instruments already in place, and you would like to add a Guitar(Treble clef) to that score, will that be possible? How about the guitar and linked tab? I am thinking of a rock bank or jazz ensemble, for example.
Thanks again.
In reply to I'll do a PR. And my by Jojo-Schmitz
Please note that currently there are 3 different guitars (with std staff notation): "Classical", Acoustic" and "Electric" (+ "Alto"): shall each of them be split into "treble + transp." and "treble 8a bassa without transp."?
In reply to Please note that currently by Miwarre
Good question, I think just one should do? I 'd take the Classical Guitar as the template.
In reply to I'll do a PR. And my by Jojo-Schmitz
See https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/2255
In reply to See by Jojo-Schmitz
PR got morged and is now in master (7e2911d) and 2.0.4 (67c17ff)
In reply to I'm ok with a new instrument by [DELETED] 5
@Lasconic, who said: "I'm ok with a new instrument Guitar (Treble clef) (in the all instruments category). Anyone want to make a PR and verify that it works if a linked tablature is added?
For the template, the ottava clef seems to be more modern and musically right so I guess it's better to keep it like it is."
Well, as told, it's a workaround, not a miracle solution.
For instance, after choosing the guitar template treble clef, if you decide to add in the Instruments dialog box a linked tab staff, it does not work of course, since the String Edit Data has not been modified to the higher octave.
Moreover, I do not know if “ the ottava clef seems to be more modern and musically right”.
See for instance, Behind Bars (Elaine Gould) on page 373, who write that "guitar music is notated on a single stave in the treble clef, sounding an octave lower than written [...] If preferred, the treble clef 8vb may be used "
My experience, and from what I see from recent scores (between 1 to 15 years ago), does not reveal a clear trend in favor of either clef. Re-read a post above when I realized that in the same publisher, it was common to see these two clefs. More or less equally, it's almost my feeling today, but no sure at all... (to check in the time). I can not say the reason for this apparent inconsistency. Survey to conduct!
In reply to @Lasconic, who said: "I'm ok by cadiz1
>My experience, and from what I see from recent scores (between 1 to 15 years ago), does not reveal a clear trend in favor of either clef
This is not at all my experience.
I note that in Gould's book, in the guitar section there are 62 examples of music that use clefs, and 60 of these are a standard treble clef.
Gardner Reed, Music Notation, (Taplinger Publishing Company, 2nd Ed. 1979) on
Page 409 (Jazz Notation) says: “(“Classical” guitar is conventionally notated on the treble clef, sounding an octave lower than written).
Google on “digital sheet music” and see Sheet Music Direct at http://www.sheetmusicdirect.us. Going there, click on the Guitar tab, and look at “Guitar Tab” and get a list of best-selling scores. Click on the magnifying glass to get thumbnails of the scores, and of the first 25 scores, none use the clef with the 8.
Similarly, if I look at http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/instruments/classical-guitar-sheet-music/…, and “look inside”, all the ones I have looked at that have thumbnails of guitar music display the normal treble clef.
The notation programs I have used, Sibelius, Finale and Encore, all create guitar instruments with a normal treble clef.
I have studied guitar since the 1960s. In my library of hundred of books and scores, I can find exactly one that uses the 8-clef. (Pierre Bensusan, The Guitar Book, published in France).
Just as a sample from the more classical guitar oriented books I have, these books all use treble clef exclusively:
Official Examination Repertoire and Studies of the Royal Conservatory of Music – Grade 8, Guitar Series (Frederick Harris Music Co, Limited 1997).
Andres Segovia, Major and minor scales
Mario Giuliani, 120 Studies for Right Hand Development
William G. Leavitt, A Modern Method for Guitar (Berklee)
Aaron Shearer, Classic Guitar Technique
Several of these books, and many more I could add, were published before personal computers were available.
My point is that there are a huge number of published guitar scores that use the standard treble clef. I don't really think that it makes sense for you to treat this as an anomaly. In my experience guitar scores with a normal treble clef far outnumber those with the 8-clef.
But this is your software, so you are certainly free to do what you like with it. I do appreciate the trouble you have already gone to to accommodate my request.
Bob
In reply to >My experience, and from what by bobzawalich
For Gould, of course.
I also know for Sibelius (to check if there is an alternative pour treble clef 8vb?) and Finale (in my memory, choice of the two clefs, but the treble clef "sounds" an octave higher, to check also)
If not, we will not spend our time for counting our scores with different clefs. I just looked again. I see many scores with treble clef 8vb (I have not the courage and the time to identify all, sorry) but also many scores with treble clef, it is also true, and I have never said otherwise. My position is somewhat more balanced than yours probably, that's all, nothing more for the moment.
PS: "In my library of hundred of books and scores." Me too! :) Well, a few hundred of books and scores!
In reply to For Gould, of course. I also by cadiz1
Thanks again for your input.
I am very familiar with how Sibelius works; less so for Finale. In Sibelius, the standard guitar instrument uses a treble clef, and the guitar instrument (in the staff) contains an octave transposition. Octave transposing clefs like what Sibelius called "Treble down 8" do not affect the transposition on a staff. The transposition is controlled by the instrument itself. (This has been argued about extensively over the years, but it is the way Sibelius works). So putting a Treble down 8 clef onto a staff will not affect the transposition.
If you create a guitar with a treble clef, you can easily make it one with a Treble down 8 by just applying such a clef to the start of the staff. It will not change the transposition. You can also create a Manuscript Paper file from your score which will retain that clef, and will appear in File > New.
There is no linked tablature staff, so that is not an issue.
It seems to me that if you could bring yourselves to creating a new clef, say a "Guitar treble" clef, that looks exactly like a treble clef, and behaves exactly like an "8-clef", then one could do the reverse of Sibelius: create a guitar instrument with the 8-clef, and then drag the Guitar treble clef onto the staff. Since it behaves exactly the same as the 8-clef, there would be no transposition issues. I would hope that one could make templates using such a clef.
It would then be easy to convert from one type of guitar staff to another by just switching clefs with different appearance but identical behavior.
This could turn out to be a solution, rather than a workaround, though I would expect that it would be harder for you to add a new clef than to make up some templates, and it might be confusing to have clefs that look the same but behave differently.
In reply to Thanks again for your by bobzawalich
FWIW, MuseScore's octave clefs work more like Finale and most other notation programs - they are honest-to-goodness clefs that simply define a different location for notes. Sibelius chose a different route for whatever reason.
I actually kind of like the idea of a style or staff setting to control whether octave clefs display with or without the "8". The downside is, with the option turned off, you would never see the 8's and not realzie that this really is the octave clef and when you go to add a clef from the palette for whatever reason, it would never occur to you that you need the octave one, because you wouldn't be used to seeing it. So the idea of a separate instrument that defines an octave transposition seems the better solution to me overall.
As for which is more common, one possible reason for differences in perception is publication date. My perception is, the octave clefs did not become common until the past few decades, very likely largely on account of Finale, which uses them by default in many situations where others might not have. Just as with MuseScore, it is possible to not use them, but the way Finale and MuseScore (and, as I said, other notations porgram besides Sibelius) are designed, things go most smoothly if you do use them, so that is what many people do.
My guess is that if someone did a study, you'd find octave clefs unheard of in music published before 1900, uncommon from 1900-1990, but then increasingly common from 1990 on.
In reply to FWIW, MuseScore's octave by Marc Sabatella
Mark, just to be clear, when you refer to "octave clefs", are you referring to clefs that display an "8" or "15", or are you referring to clefs that transpose the note by one or more octaves when applied to a staff, whether or not the 8 is visible? And are we only speaking of guitar notation here, or are you including things like vocal music for tenors, for which e.g., Gould recommends using the clef with an 8?
Gould has a section on octave transposing clefs (page 506 in my copy) where she says "The practice of using these clefs originates from a time when it was felt necessary to clarify octave transpositions: composers such as Schoenberg started a trend by producing scores with all instruments notated at actual pitch, i.e., without any octave transpositions.)
I would be willing to find some hard data on specifically guitar notation as to whether the octave transposing clefs were used with or without an 8 and whether this has changed over time. It would probably be interesting to know when guitar music started using standard notation rather than tablature, and at which point a 6-string guitar began to be notated.
Just for curiosity sake, could someone point me to some publishers who use the "8-clef" for guitar? I am having a hard time finding large amounts of such music.
I have spoken to a number of copyists and engravers who work for large publishers, and I am told that guitar work they have done for Hal Leonard and Music Sales do not use the 8-clef. I was told that someone did some work for Editions Henry Lemoine, and that some guitar music used the 8 and some note, possibly by composer preference. The same source told me that scores he had from Schott did not use the 8.
Really it does no matter which is the most common, and if it were not idiomatic in a lot of guitar music not to use the 8, I would use it for the clarity it provides. But I think it would be useful to be able to produce music with either clef, so that notation that is idiomatically correct could be easily produced.
In reply to Mark, just to be clear, when by bobzawalich
By octave clef, I mean the ones with the "8", "15", etc, yes.
Gould, BTW, says at the beginning of the chapter that you are welcome to use these if you like. Obviously, based on her examples, she personally prefers otherwise, but she makes no value judgement. It is worth nothing that she is British and I believe has been a Sibelius user and they do sometimes tend to do things differently than American publishers whose contributors tend to use Finale. The section you mention on transposing clefs is a case in point -y ou shoudl be aware that this is sort of a point of "religious war" between Sibelius users and Finale users and how they conceive of and use these clefs. She is making her particular religion clear, yes, but it is important to know that larger context here, that it really is pretty much Sibelius and one or two other programs (I think Mozart, also based in the UK) versus the rest of the notation software industry on that particular point.
Anyhow, I really don't have enough experience with guitar music to have strong opinions or data on this. I agree it should be possible to produce either. It *would* be interesting to know what the current industry practice is favoring and trending toward so we could consider what makes the most sense to do by default.
In reply to By octave clef, I mean the by Marc Sabatella
"It would probably be interesting to know when guitar music started using standard notation rather than tablature, and at which point a 6-string guitar began to be notated."
The first guitar method that used the standard "modern" notation (and Tab!) was published by an anonymous writer called DON *** in 1758.
![Don Tab clé de sol.jpg]( "Don Tab clé de sol.jpg")
The first guitar method only in standard notation: a few years later. For instance: "Le Guide des écoliers de guitare" (Joseph Bernard Merchi) " in 1761. I could be really more precise but realize that it requires considerable work to check my sources, and I don't have the time for this.
The use of tablature was then gradually turned off, to leave the place to the standard notation more or less in the early 19th. The treble clef remains the reference clef throughout this century, and probably (subject to verification) during the first third or the first half of the 20th century.
As told, I do not have time and patience to dissect my library! But eg, I see tonight a Minuetto Fernando Sor (Universal Edition, Karl Scheit) with treble clef 8vb: Copyright 1969.
"Just for curiosity sake, could someone point me to some publishers who use the "8-clef" for guitar? "
Examples:
- Universal Edition (probably, according to that I see), the most important. Especially the works of Karl Scheit: eg "Complete technical studies" of Francisco Tarrega, and many others in all epochs (Giuliani, Dowland etc.)
But also in other music style: "Beatles for guitar"/Theodo Ross ; "The minstrel boy" (Irish songs) and so on, eg: Bela Bartok (Roumanian Folk Dances, Edition for Flute and Guitar)
- Schott : many in the collection "Gitarren-Archiv": Albeniz, Bach, Brouwer ("Elogio de la Danza"), and other Tarrega ("Fantasia on Themes from La Traviata) and more recently (2009): Romantic guitar anthology /Jens Franke.
Other in Germany:
- Edition Margaux : Jaime Zenamon "Epigram"
- MusikVerlag : Linnemann/Wulff " Saitenspiele". Then:
- Ricordi : Maria Linnemann: "Suite for Lovers" ; All the Bach lute pieces arranged by Heinz Teuchert. Then, in France.
- Editions Combre : Jurg Hochweiber ("Petits jeux pour la guitare)
- Editions Lemoine (many...) : Thierry Tisserand ("Folk Songes") but also early music (vihuela, lute) transcribed for guitar
- Other in France: Editions Musicales Transatlantiques : José Barrense-Dias "Recreativo"
- Editions Van de Velde (Belgium): "Asturias" (Albeniz)
- Carish (Milano): Celtic Music for classical guitar.
- Trinity Guildhall Guitar (London) in five grades (2003)
- GSP: Guitar solo publications (San Francisco): David Kellner Lute Works (Hubert Kappel arranger)
- Kjos West (San Diego) : JS Bach " The Solo Lute Works " (2002) by Frank Koonce arranger.
- Belwin-Mills (Miami): Albeniz "Suite Espanola", transcribed by Manuel Barrueco.
- Mel Bay : Suites of Bartolotti, Jeffrey Lawrence George (2010) ; Treasures of the Baroque, compiled par David Grimes (1991)
- Chester Music (Musicsales): Léo Brouwer "Nuevos Estudios Sencillos" (2002)
In reply to "It would probably be by cadiz1
Thanks - I would not have found those!