Drum palette
The following is an observation. There's probably nothing to be done, but I'll throw it out there any way.
I'm not suggesting anything should change. I'm mainly interested in knowing if anyone else feels the same.
I'm a long time Sibelius user. For the last few years I've toyed more and more with MS because at some point my copy of 7.5 may not run on some future version of Windows. I use notation software for composition playback for my own use. Providing a score for real musicians or for posting online are of little interest to me.
I am a guitar player and drummer that grew up playing trumpet.
In passing I will mention that Sibelius has a rather neat plugin that helps replicate strum patterns with proper down and up strokes.
But mainly the MS drum palette is my problem. I've mentioned this before. Why, you would reasonably ask. would anyone have a problem with a system that helps select voices and stem directions? That is pretty well balanced, and doesn't require constant note head changes? And has access to all the different drum sounds in one place?
Me. Plus I use a mouse for input.
I realize this is my problem. I should just learn the palette. I've been told it is not difficult. True.
Here's the thing. My my trap needs are very simple. Kick, snare toms, HH, crash. Basic rock.
In Sibelius if I want a rock set, I select it and it is in the mixer. Just like any other instrument. For my purposes, this is better than a palette. Because I don't put all the drums on one staff, anyway. I put kick on one staff, snare and toms on another. and cymbals on another. This is so I can control volume better. Note entry is no more or less difficult.
In MS, I have to constantly re-select voices, as well as deal with the inability to place notes on any beat.
I'm pretty sure my system is of no interest to most folks. It might work in MS, but I don't know for sure.
As it is, I'm not not writing for drums in MS for now.
Comments
I put kick on one staff, snare and toms on another. and cymbals on another.
Have you tried doing this in MuseScore, rather than using the one staff approach?
What are the issues with voices and "the inability to place notes on any beat."
Please post actual example(s).
Not sure what you are doing wrong that requires you to revert touch the voice button, but it shouldn't be needed - not when entering parts on a single staff, not when entering on multiple staves. Not when using a keyboard, not when using a mouse. Similarly, you can absolutely enter notes on any beat - drum staff or standard staff the process is identical. So it isn't clear where you are going wrong. Feel free to attach a sample score and describe what you are doing step by step, and we should be able to assist.
In reply to Not sure what you are doing… by Marc Sabatella
Let's consider two measures of a simple beat. Kick on beat 1,3, then the "and" of 4. Snare on 2 and 4.
I start to enter the first kick note. The drum palette opens and takes up real estate at the bottom of the screen. Not a big deal, except that now I'm on a 10 inch screen. I select acoustic bass drum (voice 2) and enter notes on beats 1 and 2. I can't enter an eight note on the and of 4 without doing something on the down beat. My workaround is to just enter two eight notes and delete the first one.
Now the snare. I select acoustic snare (voice 1) from the palette. I can't enter a note on beat two without doing something on beat one. It seems to be a toss-up between entering a quarter rest on beat one, then changing to a quarter note to enter on beat two. Or just enter two quarter notes and deleting the first. Same thing to get a note on beat 4. Or just enter four quarter notes and delete 1 and 3.
All this leaves me with a bunch of rests and stems that need to be dealt with.
Or I can enter kick notes on beats 1-3, and two eights on beat four. Then use the up arrow to move the appropriate notes up to the snare space. I came across this method by accident. But it doesn't work as well if I want "four on the floor."
The first example illustrates having to change voices. Then the inability to enter notes on any beat unless you do things before the beat in question.
And this is just measure one.
This is a simple beat. As soon as you add toms and cymbals, things get complicated.
My problem with keyboard entry is that there are so many things to remember. Keyboard entry may be faster, but I really don't care about speed.
I've said it before. In Sibelius, I truly can enter a note on any beat. I use the mouse to enter a note on beat one. then move the mouse to beat four (shown by a ghost note) and enter the note. Much less to remember and easier. Plus, I just enter notes on the appropriate line or space and get more complicated beats and fills using the mouse without switching voices. Fairly easy to me.
The "note on any beat" problem sometimes changes what I write for any instrument in MuseScore. If I want to enter a note on beat four of an empty measure, I have to prepare the way somehow. In Sibelius, I just enter a note on beat four and am done with it. I know I said speed isn't important, but having to do things before beat four seems like a bit of folderol.
I guess my issue might be with note input in general. I know it stems from how I learned notation software to begin with. Mouse instead of keyboard. I'm not really complaining and I'm not expecting MuseScore to change anything, though. It's not that I can't enter drum music in MS. It's that it's more complicated for me.
In reply to Let's consider two measures… by bobjp
It would be much easier to understand and assist if you attach an actual score as I suggested.
Anyhow, yes, it's true that for any instrument - drumsets as well as guitars as well as flutes - music is read from left to right and there is no way to read or write a note as being on the and of 4 except by having others notes and rests covering the first three and half beats. MuseScore isn't in the business of changing the rules of notation here. You want something on the and of 4, you need to fill the measure left to right until you reach that point. Drums are absolutely in no way whatsoever different from any other instrument in this respect.
In your example,. not sure why you'd resort to entering a note then deleting it, though. much simpler to simply enter a rest, just like you would for guitar or flute.
After that it gets too complicated to follow your description without an actual sample score. but I am 99% sure the rest is also similarly solved just by thing about how music notation works - you write it, just as you read it, left to right. And again, drums are absolutely in no way whatsoever different form other instruments in this respect.
In reply to It would be much easier to… by Marc Sabatella
In Sibelius, I hover my mouse over any beat of an empty measure, click and the note is entered. Period. This does not defy the laws of notation. Necessary rests are filled in.
A score in MS or Sibelius can not illustrate this. I suppose a video could.
In any event, I can enter drum notation in MS (which is indeed more complicated than flute notation), but it isn't always worth the trouble.
Again, whether I enter a note or a rest isn't the point. It's that I have to prepare the measure at all.
How many total clicks or keyboard entries does it take you to enter a quarter note on beat four of an empty measure?
In reply to In Sibelius, I hover my… by bobjp
OK, true, it would be possible to implement an alternate style of note input that pre-filled rests for you. The point is, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with drums.
How many clicks to enter a half rest, quarter rest, quarter note? Same number of clicks as to enter a half note, quarter note, then quarter note. Not really sure why anyone should expect rests to take less time to enter than notes, they take the same amount of time to write by hand and the same amount of ink to print and same amount of brain power to read. But yes, once again, in theory, it's possible to implement such a mode. Probably there exists an issue for this already in the tracker, feel free to search for it and add a comment. Or if you can't find one, create one as a "Suggestion".
But again, please don't confuse the issue by talking about something specific to drums, because it isn't. It's just an extra note input mode you are requesting, one that looks at your mouse position and tries to use that somehow to guess what beat you mean.
In reply to OK, true, it would be… by Marc Sabatella
Sorry if I haven't been very clear.
For me, note input for drums is more of a problem because of the different voices involved.
But, in Sibelius, I can put a quarter note on beat four of an empty measure in one click. It is not an extra note input mode. It is THE note input mode. Mouse or keyboard input. If I choose a quarter note in input mode, a quarter note ghost note appears in the measure. It will skip between beat positions in the measure. It follows the mouse or keyboard controls. The ghost note stops on each beat so you know where each beat is. There is no guessing where a note should go. Whether input is based on a quarter note or an eight note, is selectable as a preference.
In reply to Sorry if I haven't been very… by bobjp
Other instruments use multiple voices as well, but MuseScore doesn't provide special feature to help with this in other instruments, just drums. So again, please don't confuse the issue. If you have questions about drums, ask about drums. If you want to request a new feature where mouse users can add notes at random beats, do so as mentioned in the issue tracker.
In reply to Sorry if I haven't been very… by bobjp
Others have mentioned this as a note input mode in other programs where the program somehow shows the user which on beat a note will be placed. I agree that if it exists, it should exist for all instruments and there is nothing special about drums that makes it a drum only input method. It should also be possible in all voices. I use voices on most instruments at one time or another and I rarely enter drumsets.
Marc, I do think such a discussion in this forum about this is good to put ideas together to create a decent suggestion. Once the suggestion is made comments are of course very welcomed there but I think Bob could think a little more about how to state the suggestion prior to diving into it.
In reply to Others have mentioned this… by mike320
https://musescore.org/en/node/297374 is where at least some of the discussion on an input mode of this type took place. Perhaps it could continue there.
In reply to Others have mentioned this… by mike320
I only mentioned "note on any beat" as a small part of my problem. The bigger problem for me is the entire drum palette.
I never intended this to turn into a "note on any beat" discussion. But because we're here.....
Of course this would apply to all instruments. It would be silly otherwise. Of course it is available to all voices. There is no mystery as to where beats are. A preset tells Sibelius how I want to divide measures (quarter notes, or eight notes), when I select the note value that I want to put in a measure, the pointer becomes a ghost note and pauses at each beat as I scroll through the measure. I click at the chosen beat. To be clear, I can input any note value at the chosen beat.
If I were using paper and pencil, I can write a note on beat four before filing in the prior rests or notes. A computer can do the same thing.
Now one last thing about the drum palette. Mike, I find it interesting that you don't use voices much for drums. How do you write kick, snare, toms, HH, crash and ride cymbals on one staff?
One more last thing. I would rather see the drum palette change than note input change. That means no palette at all. Just a staff with pre set sounds. MS is kind of like that now. But I just want to place notes on the staff that on the line or space that produce the sound I want. I can't do that now because of the way the palette is set up. I can't place a note on the top line and then on the next beat, place a note on the bottom space without changing voices or clicking in the palette.
In reply to I only mentioned "note on… by bobjp
"How do you write kick, snare, toms, HH, crash and ride cymbals on one staff?"
I don't normally do this, that would be using a drumset. I mostly do classical scores with one drum per staff.
In reply to I only mentioned "note on… by bobjp
OK, so let's remove the click-to-enter-on-any-beat from the equation.
Again, by posting g a sample score and describe in precise terms what you are having trouble with, how exactky do you feel the normal drum input method is problematic? I get the feeling you are missing something really basic here, but absent an example and a super clear description (like you did for the completely unrelated click any beat issue), I can't really help.
To be clear: you absolutely positively most certainly can enter notes onto different lines and spaces without changing voices (if you prefer not to) or clicking in the palette (if you prefer not to).
In reply to Others have mentioned this… by mike320
True, more discussion about how such a click-to-enter-on-any-beat feature might work could be useful, but I think the basic idea is clear enough to be worth an issue to track. It's the sort of thing I expect Martin already has some ideas about, since he knows Sibelius pretty well and also sequencer software, which is really where this type of thinking (adding a note without first thinking about the leading rests) comes from.
But sure, a separate thread to flesh the click idea out would not be a bad idea iether.
In reply to True, more discussion about… by Marc Sabatella
I can't produce a score showing the problem because making a score IS the problem.
Starting with this: "you absolutely positively most certainly can enter notes onto different lines and spaces without changing voices"
As I understand drum input, I enter input mode and am presented with the palette. I want a quarter note kick drum on beat one. To do that with the mouse, I select the "Acoustic Bass Drum" note from the palette. Kick drum notes are voice two by default. On beat one I click the bottom space, and a quarter note is placed on beat one.
Now I want a quarter note snare note one beat two. I move the mouse to the second space from the top and click. A kick drum note is placed on the bottom space. No matter where I click on the staff, only a kick drum note on the bottom space is placed. If I want a snare note, I have to go to the palette select the snare note (which is rendered in voice 1 , though changing to voice 1 from the top menu doesn't work), then I can enter a snare note on the second space from the top.
It is entirely possible that I have missed something.
Based on the drumset I select in the mixer, basic sounds are already loaded and available on the staff. Why do I need the palette?
In reply to I can't produce a score… by bobjp
> "Now I want a quarter note snare note one beat two. I move the mouse to the second space from the top and click."
This I believe is the main point of frustration on your end. But the problem with drum notation is that inputting a snare isn't solely defined by on which line you click, it also depends on the chosen notehead.
How is MuseScore to know which of the (for example) 5 noteheads defining different sounds for that line position you're trying to input?
So for this to work smoothly, there should be a way to tell MuseScore which note you're inputting on that line (one might assume that if only one such a note is part of the drumset definition for that position that it should be that note).
In reply to > "Now I want a quarter note… by jeetee
I understand that the notehead determines the sound. Interestingly enough....
1. After entering the kick note, my mouse is still loaded with the standard notehead. If I move the mouse to the snare space and click, the result is another note on the kick space rather than the snare space.
2. After placing a kick note, I can push the "up" arrow until the the standard notehead appears on the snare space, and click to input the snare note. Not at all efficient, but possible.
For the most part, I want whatever the drum sound for the standard notehead is. I would like to be able to select a (for example) quarter note as I would for any instrument, and enter notes on the desired place on the drum staff. If I want a different sound I can do that later.
In reply to I understand that the… by bobjp
But what should happen if there is no sound with the standard notehead defined for that drumset?
Or if there isn't even a note defined on that line?
In reply to But what should happen if… by jeetee
There would be something assigned to each line and space for the standard notehead. Useful things to take the place of the electric kick and snare that is there now. If you want electric sounds, select an electric set. Also, there is a high and low conga. Put those in with a hand drum kit. I play congas, but never in conjunction with my acoustic kit. If the sounds are in the font, maybe have the bottom space be the same acoustic kick and the first space be a higher pitched kick. And maybe two positions one of which is a loose snare and one a tighter snare.
As it is, If I want to write a decent fill I have to go down to the palette to select the proper drum sound each drum. one after the other. A string of 16th notes involving all my toms and snare would mean going to the palette between inputting most notes.
Unless the arrow thing works. But that seems more like by product than a feature.
In reply to There would be something… by bobjp
If I want to write a decent fill I have to go down to the palette to select the proper drum sound each drum. one after the other.
Good news... bad news...
Good...
Here's a drum input method that's mouse friendly:
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/drum-notation#piano-keyboard
Bad...
However, I hope it gets fixed for the next release.
When it worked, it allowed for successive entry of different sounds without constantly needing the drum palette. For a small kit, using only a handful of piano keys to notate the few drum sounds, it worked nicely.
To give you an idea, this part still works:
"If you click on the percussion staff without entering note input mode, you can demo the percussion instruments from the Piano keyboard."
Once you learn where the frequently used drum sounds are, it gets easier.
(Keep your eyes out for the fix.)
In reply to If I want to write a decent… by Jm6stringer
Hmmmm,
The piano keyboard method would make more sense to me if the notes that are input correspond to treble clef.
In reply to Hmmmm, The piano keyboard… by bobjp
The virtual piano keyboard (VPK), when used for drum input does not notate musical pitches - there is no "G" note relative to the "G" (or treble) clef. The VPK also produces the various noteheads, so a 'musical clef' is not justified.
Simply put, the piano keys can be regarded as switches which are mapped to different percussion sounds:
![Drum_map.png]( "Drum_map.png")
So...
Entering a string of 16th notes of different drums/cymbals involves clicking the different piano keys which then immediately place each correct character onto the percussion staff. No "back and forth" to the drum palette for each different sound.
In reply to The virtual piano keyboard … by Jm6stringer
Would it make sense to include that image (and eplanation) in the handbook page for drum entry?
In reply to Would it make sense to… by Jojo-Schmitz
Would it make sense to include that image (and explanation) in the handbook page for drum entry?
Not yet, as the following issues are unresolved:
https://musescore.org/en/node/306420
and:
https://musescore.org/en/node/150621
so virtual piano drum entry is broken.
N.B.: The image I posted uses a different pitch-octave convention - i.e., some regard C3 as middle C, others C4.
The picture shows bass drum mapped to C1. MuseScore uses a different pitch-octave notation and so bass drum is mapped to C2 - though from there, all drum sounds follow the same order.
(Sorry, I picked the first good image I could find.)
Anyway, I don't know if ver. 3.6 will have VPK drum entry fixed.
In reply to Would it make sense to… by Jm6stringer
You mean #306420: Drum Input with Virtual Piano Keyboard doesn't work which is a dulicate of #150621: Selecting an instrument in the Drum Input Palette effectively disables drum input from the on-screen Piano and/or MIDI keyboard ;-)
In reply to The virtual piano keyboard … by Jm6stringer
I do appreciate all the time being spent in this discussion. Here are my observations, so far.
Because my brain sees the drum staff in terms of a clef, the piano keyboard method makes no sense to me. My problem, to be sure. It might make more sense to me if pushing F4 on the piano keyboard set a note on the bottom space, for example.
The same would go for computer keyboard input. Push "f" inputs f.
I have been looking at the edit drum palette function. I might be able to get this to work. Except...
My desire is to not have the palette open at all. It takes up space on my small screen. All I want is to be able to enter notes on the drum staff just like any other instrument. Of course, drums aren't like other instruments. But I'm not interested in all 25 sounds shown in the map in any one score. Or at all.
In reply to I do appreciate all the time… by bobjp
I don't know if you are aware, but if a drum note is already notated, selecting it and pressing up/down arrows will cycle through the available sounds.
You don't have to use a kit with 25 sounds. You can create/edit your own drumset.
For a small kit defined with only a few sounds, this might be useful. (So not cycling through 25 different sounds)
In reply to I don't know if you are… by Jm6stringer
Yes, earlier I think I mentioned being able to cycle through sounds with the arrows.
In reply to I can't produce a score… by bobjp
You could post a hand-drawn picture of the result you want, accompanied by a score showing your best attempt.
But from my best reading of your description:
As I understand it, your voice 1 contains a snare hit on two. That means, just as it would for flute or any other instrument, a quarter rest followed by a quarter rest. So, simply enter exactly that. Not sure what's so hard about that? 5 0 A., Or if you prefer clicking, the equivalent in mouse clicks - click the quarter note icon, right click staff in staff to enter the rest, double-click snare note on palette.
The point is, you enter drum notes and rests left to right, exactly like guitars or flutes or any other instrument. if your drum part involves two voices, you enter each voice left to right separately - again, exactly like guitars or flutes or any other instrument.
It's true that for efficiency, MuseScore doesn't force you to enter drum notes by first selecting a staff line and then in a separate operation choosing the sound and then in a separate operation still selecting the notehead. I guess if you want to do things slowly than MuseScore allows, you could just stand up and walk around your chair after entering each note the efficient way :-) But the palette saves you all that trouble. Or you the keyboard shortcuts.
In reply to You could post a hand-drawn… by Marc Sabatella
OK. I've tried to prepare a score and screen shot that illustrate what I'm after.
![drum2.jpg]( "drum2.jpg")
test.mscz
Try entering these measures using the mouse and not shortcuts.
The way things seem to work now:
Measure 1. This measure shows that entering drum notes is not like entering flute notes. I'm not sure I could find a way to make a measure of flute music look like this :) The kick notes are easy enough to input. But the snare is a different voice. I go to the palette and select the snare sound. I have to be sure that a quarter rest is selected so that I can enter the rest, then change to a quarter note. Then enter a quarter note on beat two. Then back to a rest to enter on beat three. And finally, back to a quarter note to put on beat four. This is a lot of steps for one measure of four quarter notes. plus I have to go back and deal with the rests. Would be easier it I could enter notes on any beat. Sorry, I had to get that in:)
Measure 2. Or I can enter four quarter notes and use the arrows to move notes where I want. This is faster and more simple, but still requires several clicks.
Measure 3 an 4. These are the same beat. Measure 4 is cleaned up a bit. This involves 3 voices and took quite some time to enter and clean up.
Measure 5. This is the same as measure 3 and 4, and all I really want to do. I want to be able to enter this measure in the drum staff the same way I entered it in the piano staff. No switching voices. Just working with rhythms, and pitch (placement on the staff). Truly, like any other instrument. Remember this is for playback only. I wouldn't had this to a player. If the sounds are already loaded via (the mixer) into the staff and invoked by the note heads, why do I have to use the palette so much?
What I would like to be able to do:
Measure 1. Enter four quarter note in the appropriate places. Done.
Measure 2. Same.
Measure 3 and 4. Enter as in measure 5. Done. Simple, No clean up.
Measure 5 can't be done on the drum staff with one voice. Only one note on a beat is allowed. Unless there is some keystroke shortcut, which is not needed in flute input.
Sure, go to the palette for things like cymbals.
I don't know what else I can say if these examples don't help.
In reply to OK. I've tried to prepare a… by bobjp
Entering this is trivial, exactly as I have explained. For each voice, enter left to right, each voice by right-clicking, each note by double-clicking the icon on the palette. Not sure what specific part of that instruction you are having trouble with?
When I say there is no difference between drums and flute, I mean in the use of voices and rests. That much is exactly 100% identical. The only difference is in how you choose the pitches, since drums of course don't have pitch. For flutes, you click directly on the staff and that is sufficient to tell MuseScore all three relevant things about the note - the line/space, the notehead, and the sound. For drums, clicking on the staff would only tell you one of those things,. So instead, you simply double-click the palette instead of the staff. That's assuming you enjoy taking your time to enter things via mouse in the first place - it's always much more efficient, for both flutes and drums, to use keyboard shortcuts.
So measure 1 is 5 0 A 0 A (or, if you prefer taking the slow route, right-click instead of pressing "0", double-click snare icon instead of pressing "A") for voice 1, then switch to voice 2 and enter 5 B 0 B 0 (and again, if you prefer working more slowly, substitute the corresponding mouse actions).
This is the exact same sequence as for flute, except that as noted, for flute, clicking the staff is sufficient to select line/space, notehead, and sound, whereas for drums, it wouldn't be, so the palette allows you to achieve the exact same level of efficiency - which is to say, still not as fast as keyboard, but not as slow as it would be if you literally had to select line/space, notehead, and sound for each and every note. What a disaster that would be!
Measure 2 appears to be incorrect notation, at least in any score where you are also wanting measures to look like measure 1. If you are adopting a new standard where instead of placing feet & hands in separate voices, you want everything in the same voice, you simply set that up in your drumset definition. Then you would enter that all in voice 1 as 5 B A B A or the equivalent in mouse clicks,'
Measure 3 I'm not understanding surely you don't actually want that incorrectly-notated mess? It's possible to create obviously, but MuseScore also makes it trivially easy to actually notate same rhythm correctly - using only two voices.
Measure 4 is better, and is entered precisely the same as measure 1. first enter voice 1 left to right, then voice 2 - exactly as you would if this were a flute. I honestly can't tell what part of this you are having trouble with If you exaplin which note you were having trouble double-clicking on the palette, or which rhythm you couldn't figure out how to enter, I could assist better. But again, one note or rest at a time, left to right, simple as that. For the last beat where voice 1 has a "chord", simply hold shift while double-clicking the second note. Or, if you prefer taking the slower route, enter the first note normally, then select the second and click in the staff.
In reply to OK. I've tried to prepare a… by bobjp
Measure 5 absolutely can be done in only voice, Again, if you prefer that type of notation, simply set up your drumset that way then enter the note left to right all in the same voice, as explained above with respect to measure 2. Not sure what trouble you are having entering multiple notes on a beat - as I said, and as the Handbook presumably explains, Shift plus double-click adds to the chord, or if you prefer working more slowly, click the palette then click on staff.
And once again, the basic question of why use the palette, again, it's to save you the trouble of having to separately select line/space, notehead, and sound for each and every note., If you really prefer note input to be three times as slow, how about this compromise: enter the note, then hit the left cursor to move back, enter the note again, then left cursopr again, and enter the note again? :-)
In reply to Measure 5 absolutely can be… by Marc Sabatella
Marc,
It's not that I can't figure out how to use the palette. I have.
It's that I wish I didn't have to.
Of course short cuts are much faster than mouse input. But I use the mouse. You might ask why I don't just learn shortcuts at least for drum input? My only answer is that it's another system I have to learn. Mouse input is fine for me.
"to save you the trouble of having to separately select line/space, notehead, and sound for each and every note"
So instead, because I use the mouse, note input takes 2 to 3 times as many clicks. I also realize now that talking about putting everything in one voice does not do what I want. What I want is to be able to place a note on a beat without having to select anything from the palette (or use the corresponding shortcut) first.
I would like to be able to modify drum input. I don't need all 25 sounds in the standard kit. I might need 6 or 7. I would like drum sounds to assigned to lines and spaces when I select which kit I want and not by the palette.
Once I'm in note input mode, I just want to be able to click on the bottom space and get a kick note. Then on the next beat, move the mouse two spaces up and click a snare note there. And so forth. No shortcut or palette single/double click first.
I suspect that this concept is just as hard for you (because you know the palette) as the palette is hard for me because I think it would be easier without it.
In reply to Marc, It's not that I can't… by bobjp
I don't understand what you mean about "2 to 3 times as many clicks". You mean, if you didn't have thew alette and were forced to choose line/space, notehead, and sound separately for each and every note? Yes, indeed, without the palette, you would need 3 times as many clicks. More, actually. But the palette enables you to do it in precisely the same number of clicks as for flute staves. OK, there is a double-click to enter the note rather than a single, so if you count that as half an additional click, OK, fine, but it's nowhere near 3 times as many.
Again, you never need to "first select something from the palette". Double-click and it is entered right now. No waiting, no doing that first then having to do something else later. Double-click the palette and you're done. Line/space, notehead, and sound all entered for you in one step. You just said you don't like having to do three times as many clicks, that is precisely what the palette saves you from. Without the palette, it would be 3 times as many clicks, probably more. With the palette, it is the same number of clicks.
If you don't want all the notes in the palette, just delete the ones you don't need via Edit Drumset.
In reply to I don't understand what you… by Marc Sabatella
So far I don't see a way to delete all but the six sounds I need with Edit Drumset. I don't need to be able to select line, notehead and sound with one (and a half) clicks. I just want to be able to use the mouse to add a quarter note on the third staff line in the drum staff, and have the acoustic snare be the result.
I understand that what I want to be able to do is not possible,
Everyone's brain is different. I have no problem with note input for any other instrument. But the drum palette is much different. I have to input notes from within the palette, rather than the actual drum staff. For what I need, the palette is slower. Input my measure 5 above into the drum staff only using the mouse. No shortcuts to change note durations or drum palette noteheads. You probably don't even need to try it to wonder to yourself, "why would anyone waste their time using the mouse?" It's because long ago It is the way I learned to use notation software.
In reply to So far I don't see a way to… by bobjp
You can remove an entry from the drum input palette by clearing its name (added this to the handbook now: "Leave empty to remove this note from the Drum input palette.")
FWIW I agree that you should be able to click on the staff position and get the entry at least at that line. Being able to click into any position will then come "for free" once that is implemented for all instruments.
As an example, take the following reduced drumset definition (kick, toms, snare, cymbal):
![314130-drumset.png]( "314130-drumset.png")
I've deliberately used standardstaff pitchnamed shortcuts here to be able to more easily reference steps further down.
(A) when I enter note entry mode for that drumset I do get a shadow note, which is shown on every staff space. It would be cool if it showed only on pitches defined by the drumset
(B) Clicking within the drumset staff does nothing at this point. This is confusing, because the shadow note seems to indicate I should be able to click in something. (Yes, we know that you need to select the chosen note first; but first time users don't)
So the proposal is as follows:
(1) Only show shadow note on defined entries for a drumset (this in the future might be expanded for certain other instruments as well, for which I believe non-continuous valid ranges exist)
(2) When clicking in the drum staff, enter the first note defined for that position (by default) unless a different note for that position is selected in the drumset input area.
So lets compare entering the following bar starting from an empty measure:
![314130-drumset-input-example.png]( "314130-drumset-input-example.png")
Current mouse actions:
double click "E" in palette
double click "E" in palette (or single click it in the staff; one less click, but mouse move takes more time)
double click "A" in palette
double click "D" in palette
single click "B" in palette
click at first beat of measure
click at third beat of measure
Total mouse interactions: 11
Proposed mouse actions:
click E on staff for beat 1
click B on staff for beat 1
click E on staff for beat 2
click A on staff for beat 3
click B on staff for beat 3
double click D in palette for beat 4 (or single click in palette and then click in staff)
Total mouse interactions: 7
And this method is much more closely related to how standard staff note input works. If then the shadow note feature can be improved to only show valid entries (and for those with multiple noteheads shows you which notehead is currently selected/active) then I think this will indeed cut input time for drumsets for mouse users drastically (we're already looking at around 30-35% less interactions with this example).
Yes, it won't solve those situations where you have to select the correct notehead variant for definitions where there are multiple type of notes defined for the same position. But it will speedup all other notes defined within the drumset. (Bonus points for being able to "select" one note variant for each position within the drumset, but that might be a far stretch within the current design)
In reply to You can remove an entry from… by jeetee
This is indeed more the type of thing I am looking for. And thanks for adding that line to the handbook. I don't mind going to the palette now and then. As you point out, it's not just fewer mouse clicks, It's also less having to move around the screen in general.
In reply to So far I don't see a way to… by bobjp
So, hopefully it is clear now: what you describe is possible. You can delete unneeded drums from the palette, and you can can use the mouse to add a quarter note on the third staff line on the drum staff with acoustic snare being the result (and a standard notehead) - very simply in a single action, by double-clicking the palette. No shortcuts needed, if you like working slow, MuseScore allows you to work as slowly as you want.
In reply to So, hopefully it is clear… by Marc Sabatella
Closer, but not quite what I want. I have used very simple examples. Maybe too simple. I don't want to use shortcuts or the palette at all. Just the mouse on the drum staff. And do this for every note I want to input. This would speed up drum notation quite a bit for me. It's not that I want to work slower. I'm just after consistency. We just seem to go round in circles in this discussion.
Your answer is always to point out faster ways to use what MuseScore has to offer. I totally agree. Your way is faster. But to use it, I would have to learn something very different from what I know now, and wouldn't use it enough to make it worth while. Perhaps it's laziness on my part. Oh well.
In reply to Closer, but not quite what I… by bobjp
I get that you don't want to use the palette. Right now, that's how it's done - we don't provide an alternate method that forces you to select line/space, notehead, and sound separately in the steps rather than all at once. But what you said was, you want to do all that without using keyboard shortcuts, and without taking three times as long. That is perfectly possible, exactly as I described. That is, you can enter the exact sequence of notes mentioned without touching the keyboard and without taking more clicks than the method you describe.
If you want to use an alternate program that doesn't provide the palette and thus takes three times as long to enter drum notes when you are using standard drum notation with alternate noteheads etc, probably such programs exist.
In reply to So, hopefully it is clear… by Marc Sabatella
What is equally clear is that the proposed method would be around 30% faster with imho pretty much no downsides to it.
In reply to What is equally clear is… by jeetee
And for me, it's also about consistency. The first time I ran into the palette, I was in the middle of a composition project. I decided to add a drumset and had to come to a full stop while I tried to figure it out. I'd never seen anything close to it. In the end, I left the drums out. Since then I've used it on a limited basis.
In reply to What is equally clear is… by jeetee
I'm not seeing that. As far as I can tell it's precisely the same number of clicks, and only then, only in the best case, which is the entirely made-up case where no alternate noteheads are used (unlike how actual drum music is notated). In all other cases - eg, actually creating standard drum notation, using multiple noteheads to notate multiple sounds - it's at least twice as many interactions, probably more like three or four times as many depending on how one proposes changing noteheads. Maybe I'm still missing something, but so far, I'm just not getting it.
In reply to I'm not seeing that. As far… by Marc Sabatella
Your example above " you can can use the mouse to add a quarter note on the third staff line on the drum staff with acoustic snare being the result (and a standard notehead) - very simply in a single action, by double-clicking the palette" I understand.
But consider my measure 4. I am not interested in proper drum notation. I am interested in playback. For measure four, I would like to be able to enter the notes in the drum staff the same way I did in the piano staff in measure 5. That is, on the actual staff. It's not about which method is faster. It's not about which system takes more of less clicks.
And yes, there is other notation software that works this way. There are those that don't like it and prefer the Musescore method. I get it.
In reply to Your example above " you can… by bobjp
Indeed, drum notation works differently, to keep it from being inefficient. But measure 4 can still be entered very simply, and no more clicks than it would take for flute. Just different ones, because again, there interface is optimized to make more complex music easy as well as relatively simple examples like this.
An alternate scheme that provide an equally efficient way of entering simplified notation like this would certainly be possible of course.
In reply to I'm not seeing that. As far… by Marc Sabatella
It'll never be more interactions than the current model, as the current input model is pretty much retained.
So here are the numbers for more "real cases" then; Created a score with all unpitched/marching/body percussion instruments (including MDL).
There are 45 single note instruments. Input would remain largely identical, except that with the current proposal there would no longer be a need to first click on that single note in the drum input palette for mouse input to start working.
Then there are 7 instruments where all defined pitches are on different lines. So these all will benefit from the new input mode; most (5) of them are two-pitched where the average efficiency increase would thus be around 45-50%. One of them (Concert Toms) has 6 pitches defined, so there's even more switching of selected pitch avoided here.
Finally there are 26 instruments for which the position alone (by default) isn't enough information to get the correct note entry. However most of them (19) do define pitches on different lines as well; which already would give you a benefit in the proposed system for not having to change the "selected" pitch when using those from a different line, compared to currently having to change the selected pitch for every switch of position as well.
Taking the bold (sorry, had to pull the markup pun here ;) ) assumption that for those instruments the most used pitches are those that got assigned shortcuts, this change request would indeed result in a noticeable benefit for most of them.
Taking the default drumset instrument for example you'd benefit for 5 out of the 6 currently assigned pitches. Likewise the Tenor and Bass Drums instruments would only require interaction when changing from playing technique (hit vs rim) compared to now requiring interaction for every time a different tenor drum is hit.
Yes, you can make the argument that some of those instruments are used way more commonly than others; but in no scenario this proposal results in more interaction effort over the current system. While in many (if you distribute instrument usage equally, about 33% of them) there is the expectance of 35% less interaction required.
All of that without breaking the ever more efficient keyboard input mode whilst being more consistent with mouse input for pitched staves.
In reply to It'll never be more… by jeetee
It is interesting to me just how customizable MuseScore is. 90% of the Synthesizer is a mystery to me. That's OK. I mostly use it to deal with sound fonts. But I'm sure many others appreciate all the possible modifications it provides. I never learned MIDI, so that part of the mixer is of no use to me. But others rely on those possibilities. And the drum palette offers the possibility of selecting note head, sound, and placement at once. Great. I don't need all that.
Here's an idea. As it is now, I can edit the drum set. I can leave sounds out that I don't want. I can change note heads.
How about one more setting that would make my choices the default notes that are added to the drum staff when I click on a particular line on that staff. If I need something different once in a while, I can choose it from the palette.
In reply to It'll never be more… by jeetee
I have nothing against more note input modes for percussion especially if it makes things more intuitive. I'm just having trouble understanding the claim that a proposed new method would somehow result in 35% fewer interactions. Unless you count as a double-click as two.
But to the extent I understand what is being proposed, it sounds like we are saying, allow clicking in the score to pay attention to the line/space being clicked, and rather than use the current palette icon to decide what note to place, instead have some algorithm that chooses between the different notes that use that line. In the special case where there really is only one of each, no guesswork is required. So, nice, indeed, you get something that feels more like pitched entry, although I'm still not seeing the 35% savings unless it's about the single click vs double-click.
As for the idea that it doesn't interfere with the existing model, well, yes it does, because it require people to suddenly be a lot more careful about where they click if they are currently using the click-in-score method. For instance, in a standard drumset, I can enter ride cymbal rhythms all day long by clicking as fast as my fingers can keep up, not needing to be careful about exactly which line/space I click. With this proposal, I'd need to slow down. I doubt most users would be happy with that change, frankly. But if it were a separate mode, sure, why not.
I admit I've mostly been thinking about the actual drumset instrument here, not the other miscellaneous percussion instruments. But, most of the others that actually get used are single-line instruments in which all their sounds are on the line. For those, as far as I can tell, the proposal here basically just amounts to preselecting the "default" note so you don't need to click it. After that, everything works the same, no new mode or other changes required. That much I could imagine sneaking into 3.6.
But consider, for example, the concert snare drum instrument. There are two pitches defined in the drumset, both on the same line. As long as you only use the standard note, and that is the one selected by default, great. But then, how do you enter the other note? Go back to double-clicking the palette, or use the up/down arrows, or is there some other new UI being proposed here? And would it save 35% over the one action (double-click the palette icon) currently required to enter that sound?
In reply to I have nothing against more… by Marc Sabatella
My proposal:
1. Add drum set to a score. In the default font 26 sounds are loaded. I load my edited set instead, which has 7 or so. I am done with the palette.
2. I enter in the proper place on the drum staff the notes I want to get the sounds I want.
Of course I have to be careful which line or space I click on. Just like any other instrument.
Concert snare is a separate instrument, and is not included in the default drum set.
If my goal is to put some basic notes, or sounds, on a staff, why would I want to click anywhere but on the staff in question if I don't have to? For every line and space in a flute part, MuseScore places a different pitch (sound). Why can't the same happen for drums if I don't want all the extras?
It's not about a 35% saving. It's not about faster or slower. Let's face it, mouse input is slower. So what!. It's more about consistency.
Sure, maybe most folks what all that capability the palette offers. But what if a preference could be set to do something simpler.
In reply to I have nothing against more… by Marc Sabatella
Yes, it is (partially) about single vs double click too, because to my finger that performs the click, that does make a difference in effort.
I also gladly concede that this might inflate the % number compared to the "time" saved, which is much more related to movements instead.
I see the point on why it interferes with the current model as it now requires more diligence from a user to click in the "correct" position. Then again, imho this point is mostly moot as the target audience would be mouse heavy users; whom are used to clicking in the correct spot for standard notation already. Their learning curve would be minimal.
The "other" users then I believe would be more keyboard centric users anyway, which well.. likely use the keyboard for entry (or the double click method). They indeed will meet a small learning curve for those notes that don't have keyboard shortcuts, which they currently might enter with the click-anywhere method. (then again there is R and/or rhythm entry mode too).
>> "But consider, for example, the concert snare drum instrument. There are two pitches defined in the drumset, both on the same line. As long as you only use the standard note, and that is the one selected by default, great. But then, how do you enter the other note? […]"
Yes, for such an instrument there would be no difference in mouse interactions compared to the current model. Double click from palette would still work, or arrow after entry, or single click palette and single click staff.
The gain is mostly in eliminating as many of the score-to-palette (and back to score) movements for mouse users that don't use the double click method, whilst keeping the double click method for all users at the same time.