What is 'classical phrasing'?
I’ve noticed that brass instruments in the staff text have 'classical phrasing' as an alternative option to 'standard.' Can anyone please explain what 'classical phrasing' is all about? So far, I haven’t detected any difference in the sound compared to the 'standard' option.
Comments
Many things in the staff text don't affect playback. As MuseScore is notation software, I suspect these can be suggestion for real players. That only answers half your question. I know.
In reply to Many things in the staff… by bobjp
-- I see. Thank you. Well, I still hope that it will start affecting playback in the future at some point somehow; otherwise there is really no reason then to make it an option in the Studio "Staff Text" menu - just keeping it as an option in the general "Text" menu would be enough then.
Classical phrasing is often characterized by meticulous attention to the composer's markings, adherence to structural integrity, and a commitment to conveying a predetermined narrative. Jazz, in contrast, thrives on improvisation, encouraging musicians to paint with broad strokes of spontaneity, creating a narrative in the moment.
https://evantatemusic.com/blogs/10-ways-to-improve-your-jazz-soloing/po…
https://prezi.com/wsdoewl2fr7x/classical-phrasing-in-haydn-partsongs/ appears to assume that the meaning of the phrase is either self-evident or well-known. It does not define "classical phrasing", except by example (which may be helpful?).
The second flash card at https://quizlet.com/ca/517883469/classical-vs-baroque-flash-cards/ defines "classical phrasing" as "regular phrase structure". Not much help, I'd say. :-)
The video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcKxGUBh7Nk is titled "Classical Phrasing" but does not define the phrase or differentiate it from any other sort of phrasing.
The article at https://www.pgvis.com/session/conflict-of-interpretation-between-perfor… also uses the term without defining it: describing "applying Viennese Classical phrasing on Anton Walter and Conrad Graf fortepianos".
Based on this quick search on the web, I conclude that the term is widely understood in academic music study. You might want to contact someone at the nearest university with a good music program and ask them. *shrug*
In reply to Classical phrasing is often… by TheHutch
@TheHutch:
Thank you for this input. I am studying your links now.
"You might want to contact someone at the nearest university with a good music program and ask them."
-- Well, if it's only what it is in your first quote ("...meticulous attention to the composer's markings, adherence to structural integrity, and a commitment to conveying a predetermined narrative"), then my first audience to address this question to would be, on the contrary, the MuseScore Studio developing team. I really hope that this "Classical Phrazing" option will be affecting the playback and we will all be able to hear the difference. Otherwise, if it's only a matter of text telling the performer "to be more meticulous about the composer's markings", then it could be just a general "Text" option, not the Studio "Staff Text" option.
In reply to @TheHutch: Thank you for… by innerthought
The point of the several quotes was that there is no agreement about what the phrase means ... at least in the first dozen or so hits in a Google search. By checking with the university, you might find that there is actually a widely recognized definition (or that there is not). Until you have identified a widely agreed-upon definition, there's little point in contacting anybody in the development team.
In reply to Classical phrasing is often… by TheHutch
All of which points to the reality that there is little agreement on various musical terms based on which continent you are on. Academics or not. Don't get tied up in theory. Each musician interprets markings as they see fit. Two pianists may try to play a piece in a classical phrasing style. But they will be different. Musicians are not robots. Regardless of what a composer puts in their score, there will be different interpretations. That's what makes it music. Real music. Notation is not music. It is nothing until a musician brings it to life.
In reply to All of which points to the… by bobjp
Yes.
In reply to Yes. by xavierjazz
Regarding the term "classical phrasing"...
At an open-mic session at a local bar, I was asked to sit in. I started tuning my guitar using the basic/standard 5th-fret-to-next-string method, along with a more complex sounding of various harmonics to more precisely dial in the guitar's intonation.
One fellow in the group remarked: "That's close enough. This is bluegrass... You see this violin I'm holding?... Tonight, it's a fiddle - there's no need for classical phrasing!"
I always thought that it somehow affected slur playback. I don’t see that above in this discussion, but I was under the impression that ‘normal’ was everything legato and ‘classical phrasing’ was everything tongued except when you add slurs. It’s only available for strings and brass but it would make sense that it’s being developed for each wind section.
I could be completely wrong about this. Listening to the difference is very slight and I’m not 100% positive.
Okay, since the discussion of my question seems to be shifting more and more toward understanding the original and conventional meaning of the term 'classical phrasing', while what I'm primarily after is how this applies in the MuseScore Studio Staff Text menu options, I'd like to make a simple request: if you've noticed any difference in playback between the 'Ordinary' and the 'Classical Phrasing' options of the Staff Text menu for any instrument (which seems to be only the brass, though I'm not sure) such as how slurs or dynamics are treated, please share your observations in this thread.
In reply to Okay, since the discussion… by innerthought
Ok I've done some testing since this also intrigues me and I believe I've found it. I've attached a score with some instruments playing a phrase with the different markings. You can go through it and listen to each instrument individually and try to see the difference. Here's what I think I've found:
Standard: I believe that this plays everything legato (connected) except for shorter notes in runs and stuff like that (which makes since since I've read that the muse sounds playback engine has a special mode that activates when fast notes are notated). My experiment has some quarter notes alternating with slurs on and slurs off and and I can't hear a difference. Keep in mind that muse sounds uses round robin sampling, so each note is sampled multiple times and then chosen to be played back by random to increase realism (so if you do hear a difference with the quarter notes with or without slurs then that may be it).
I then put in some eighth and sixteenth notes (which probably activate the 'fast run playback mode') and I think that it plays everything tongued except for slurred passages, which it makes legato.
You can see where it talks about the 'fast runs mode' in the image that I've attached.
Classical phrasing: I think this means that anything written will be played with each note being tongued, but when slurs are added, it will playback legato.
This also removes the very controversial 'portamento' (bending of notes on transitions) on solo violin. A lot of people have talked about how it's too much. In classical phrasing it now only plays portamento with slurs,
non-legato: All notes are played tongued (or with separation) no matter if it's notated with slurs or without.
Hopefully this is helpful (and hopefully I'm right lol!).
In reply to Ok I've done some testing… by JonasEM
-- Thank you for your time and for this file. Yes, I can hear the difference now, and it fits your description. It's interesting how slurs in non-legato mode reduce the velocity of the brass, especially that of the horn and trumpet, almost to nothing.
In reply to Ok I've done some testing… by JonasEM
-- Hmm, how did you switch on the 'non-legato' mode for violins? I don't see that one among the options on the menu:
![nonleg.jpg]( "nonleg.jpg")
In reply to Hmm..., how did you switch… by innerthought
Oh, I just copied and pasted the phrase into the strings. I don’t think that it’s available. Maybe only for brass..?
In reply to Oh, I just copied and pasted… by JonasEM
-- Ah, I see. No wonder the difference in sound between playing back with slurs and without slurs in 'non-legato' mode is more noticeable in the brass section, that is, where the 'non-legato' option is available in the menu.