Bug report regarding missing spaces between numbers and unit

• Nov 21, 2013 - 18:01

In e.g. the dialog window "MuseScore: Edit Style", pane "Bars", there are missing spaces between the numbers and their units in the spinboxes.

An issue is created in the issue tracker.

Comments

• Nov 21, 2013 - 20:49

I don't see anything in the style guide either, but the style guide is a document written by human beings, just as the software itself is. I don't see why one set of human beings should be considered more authoritative than the other. Whether it was the human beings writing the style guide or the human beings writing the software who decided LibreOffice should work that way (or maybe it was the human beings designing whatever GUI toolkit they use, or the human beings who developed the style guide for that GUI toolkit), some set of intelligent and, like it or not, influential human beings made a valid choice. And as observed on that other thread, it's not just OpenOffice/LibreOffice - other programs make that same choice. There can be no possible question looking at the *actual real world* that there is precedent for both approaches, as there is for the approach of not including units within the spin boxes at all (which is, again, my own personal preference).

Bottom line: I can't imagine any possible reason to get even the slightest bit worked up over a choice where there is *clear and obvious real world evidence* showing that there are multiple valid approaches, especially a choice over something so clearly and obviously trivial in importance. I also can't imagine any possible way I could explain this position any more clearly, or any possible convincing counterargument that would change my mind about any of this. So I hope to not respond on this topic again.

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• Nov 21, 2013 - 21:34

Magnus, believe it or not, whether there should or should not be a space between the number and the (abbreviated) unit in the UI of a computer program is a matter of opinions. There is no absolute truth...

Furthermore you might want to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bike_shed ;-)

And if you insist in translating the abbreviation "sp" into the unabbreviated Swedish "mellanrum", what's wrong about translating it as " mellanrum", i.e. with an added space?

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• Nov 21, 2013 - 22:16

No, it really isn't a matter of opinion. There shall be a space, it is apparently as simple as that. General writing rules says so and there are obviously no rules or recommendations in computer programming that says otherwise, just a sloppy way of doing it that programmers tend to follow like a herd of sheep.

Regarding starting a string with a space The OpenOffice.org User Interface Text Style Guide discourages such a practice: "Do not start a text with a space or add an additional space after the text. Unfortunately, this was done in the past by developers when implementing the text. They added spaces to the text as a way of providing formatting or spacing of text units on the UI. Not only is that not good coding, but it will cause errors in the translation database as well as begs for errors in localizations, where the translator will usually not include the extra spaces and therefore lose the “formatting” on the UI. If the UI design prescribes indentation or other spacing of text, then it must accounted for in the code, not as part of the text string."

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 09:39

What rules of writing state universally and for every language on this planet, that there got to be a space and the abbreviated unit? Citation, please.
For German and English this seems valid (see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationales_Einheitensystem#Schreibwei… resp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units#General_rules) but there are exceptions for °, ' and " (degree, minute, second), and (in German) it also explicitly asks for a thin space, so by far is not as absolute the truth you want it to be!

While it might be true that there is no rule or recommendation for computer programs to do it differently (and no, there is nothing obvious about this!), there is a common practise. Actually there are two common practises, with and without that space, with prominent examples for either choice!

"Thou shalt not omit the space between numbers and units" sounds like the 11th commandment, but I'm pretty sure it is not ;-)

Yes, that OpenOffice style guide gives a the reason why the space is not to be in the source! Reason is given there too: It is not in there, so it can't get lost in translation!
But there's nothing that keeps you from adding it into your translation...

Apparently you did the translation of MuseScore (v0.95?) into Swedish more than 4 years ago. That space was missing then already (and still is in 1.3), so why complaining just now?

Is it because of your wrong decision back then to translate the abbreviating "sp" into "mellanrum" (rather than " mellanrum"), which indeed looks quite wrong? Is it that you can't admit to having made a mistake more than 4 years ago?
"Thou shalt not translate abbreviations into unabbreviated counterparts", 12th commandment and an absolute truth ;-)

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 10:10

Jojo: "What rules of writing state universally and for every language on this planet, that there got to be a space and the abbreviated unit?"

I do not know of any, but it does not need to be any to make the correct decision. There already is clear evidence that there should be a space. For Swedish see http://www.sprakradet.se/skrivregler and http://www.fritext.se/svenska/svenskafs.html. Adding to this I still think "space" should not be abbreviated. It says in The OpenOffice.org User Interface Text Style Guide that uncommon abbreviations shall not be used. From where came the idea of abbreviating "space"?

Jojo: "[...] so by far is not as absolute the truth you want it to be!"

This is rather funny. First you present evidence that there really should be a space in the current MuseScore case, then you suddenly and wholly illogically come to the conclusion that it isn't true.

Jojo: "While it might be true that there is no rule or recommendation for computer programs to do it differently (and no, there is nothing obvious about this!), there is a common practise. Actually there are two common practises, with and without that space, with prominent examples for either choice!"

This is quite confusing. You are actually giving no real arguments for the notion that the practice not obeying general writing rules should be the one used in a GUI, and you end your confusing speech with an exclamation mark!

Jojo: ""Thou shall always separate numbers and units by a space" sounds like the 11th commandment, but I'm pretty sure it is not ;-)"

You can wink how much you want to, but it would be better for this discussion if you presented arguments supporting your belief.

Jojo: "But there's nothing that keeps you from adding it into your translation..."

No, there isn't, but my adding a space at the start of a string doesn't make other languages get the right formatting.

Jojo: "Apparently you did the translation of MuseScore (v0.95?) into Swedish more than 4 years ago. That space was missing then already (and still is in 1.3), so why complaining just now?"

This is illogical reasoning. If I missed this earlier there is of course no reason now to not correct it.

Jojo: "Is it that you can't admit to having made a mistake more than 4 years ago?"

Ha, ha, ha! Certainly not; as I've already said: I missed it back then.

I wonder: Why are you so desperately trying to fight a correct usage of language in a GUI? Are you afraid your world will crumble?

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 11:03

I provided evidence that in general, for English and German texts, there should be a space, but that there are exceptions (for degree, minutes, seconds) and that it should be a thin space. You elected to simply ignore that.
I asked for universal rules, you apparently can't provide them, but show some Swedish rules I can't read.
The word 'space' has multiple meanings, one the world outside this planet ("Weltall" in German), another is the sign generated by the space bar ("Leerzeichen" in German), yet another is the unit in printing press terms ("Spatium" in German), and this is the one we talk about here! Units are commonly abbreviated. "Space" (or "Spatium" for that matter") as "sp", simple as that. Similarly "point" (yet another typographic unit) as "pt".

You ignore my argument that it is done differently in different programs.

I showed you some code, here it is again:
{syntaxhighlighter brush:xml}

sp

2.000000000000000

4.000000000000000

{/syntaxhighlighter}

You found in that style guide that the programmer should not start strings with spaces. So where should it be added then?
Right: if anywhere, then in the translation!

Why are you so desperately fighting for these spaces, are you afraid your world will crumble?

For the record: I'm not fighting against them, I just believe it is not worth the effort.
And apparently I'm not alone with that opinion.

But feel free to grab the code, make the changes and submit a pull request and try to convince the core developers to accept that. But note: offending people along the way ain't gonna help...

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 13:23

Regarding the title of your latest comment, what has a falsified statement to do with this discussion? Are you trying an insinuation?

Jojo: "I provided evidence that in general, for English and German texts, there should be a space, but that there are exceptions (for degree, minutes, seconds) and that it should be a thin space. You elected to simply ignore that."

Where in my previous comment did I ignore that you argued for my notion?

Jojo: "I asked for universal rules, you apparently can't provide them, but show some Swedish rules I can't read."

I have already explained to you that there is no need for universal rules to make the right decision in this case. What is it that you do not understand about that?

Jojo: "[...] yet another is the unit in printing press terms ("Spatium" in German), and this is the one we talk about here!"

No, you are wrong again. The typographical term "space" is not the same as the musical notation term "space". The latter is the distance between two adjacent lines in a normal five-line staff.

Jojo: "Units are commonly abbreviated."

Yes, but not always, and I still wonder: From where came the idea of abbreviating "space"? Can you give any references? For instance Igor Engraver 1.7 and Sibelius 5 do not abbreviate the term; see attached image.

Jojo: "You ignore my argument that it is done differently in different programs."

That something is done differently in other programs is not any support for the correctness of one of the methods.

Jojo: "You found in that style guide that the programmer should not start strings with spaces. So where should it be added then?"

Thanks; finally a good question. However, don't you think that question should be addressed to those who wrote the guide? What code solution did the authors have in mind when the text said that such text formatting should be accounted for in the actual code instead of in the strings?

Jojo: "Right: if anywhere, then in the translation!"

But then you still have the incorrect formatting in the original string!

Jojo: "Why are you so desperately fighting for these spaces, are you afraid your world will crumble?"

No, I argue for the spaces because they shall be there, because they constitute correct writing.

Jojo: "For the record: I'm not fighting against them, I just believe it is not worth the effort."

You should have said so right away instead of taking up my time with illogical reasoning. So, you are just afraid of the work for getting MuseScore a proper writing style. That is not very impressive.

Jojo: "And apparently I'm not alone with that opinion."

Marc, who of course couldn't frankly state that I was right without trying to argue against me and finally resorting to his false relativism, mentioned the solution that is represented in the attached Sibelius dialog window. Is that also too much work for you?

Jojo: "But feel free to grab the code, make the changes and submit a pull request and try to convince the core developers to accept that."

Don't you think Werner wants MuseScore to look as good as possible?

Jojo: "But note: offending people along the way ain't gonna help..."

Where have I offended you?

Attachment Size
Sibelius 5.png 29.98 KB

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 13:34

Magnus: Where have I offended you?
Magnus: You've really lost it, Jojo
Magnus: You do not sound very dedicated to improving MuseScore

Not offensive? Hmm, OK, wait:

Jojo: "As per that the core developers seem to have decided to use the OpenOffice style"
Magnus:That's plain stupid.
Jojo: What/who is stupid, OpenOffice's design, the core developers or their decision?
Magnus: Stupid is as stupid does.

Magnus @ xavierjazz: Are you really a troll?

Magnus @ authors of LibreOffice and MuseScore: ... sloppy program writing ...
and: ... just a sloppy way of doing it that programmers tend to follow like a herd of sheep.

Magnus @ Marc: there is no chance for you to understand the issue.

I don't need more, do you? plonk

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 14:02

Jojo: "Magnus: You've really lost it, Jojo"

Well, it was true. You made several illogical statements quite atypical for a software developer. You were probably so angry with me you couldn't think clearly.

Jojo: "Magnus: You do not sound very dedicated to improving MuseScore"

That was also true and no offense.

Jojo: "Magnus:That's plain stupid."

Since you are not a core developer it can't be offensive against you. What I thought was stupid is when someone advocates guidelines that the same person does not follow. I doubt e.g. Werner made such a mistake.

Jojo: "Magnus: Stupid is as stupid does."

It wasn't directed to you, but again, as a saying it is very true, don't you think so?

Jojo: "Magnus @ xavierjazz: Are you really a troll?"

Not directed to you, and no offense, just a question when Xavierjazz warned for trolls, a comment he quickly removed when he realised it wasn't the smartest thing he had said or written.

Jojo: "Magnus @ authors of LibreOffice and MuseScore: ... sloppy program writing ...
and: ... just a sloppy way of doing it that programmers tend to follow like a herd of sheep."

No, you are wrong again. This is the correct quotation: "So the omitted space in e.g. LibreOffice seems to be just sloppy program writing and as such should be no model for MuseScore." The programmers in the herd didn't comprise you.

Jojo: "Magnus @ Marc: there is no chance for you to understand the issue."

Not directed to you.

Jojo: "I don't need more, do you? plonk"

You didn't show one example of me offending you.

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 14:49

I was responding to
Jojo: "But note: offending people along the way ain't gonna help..."
So it was not (only) about me.
But rest assured, the ones I mentioned to have offended me did offend me, whether this was your intention or not. And you last reply didn't make it any better at all. And I don't need a teacher telling me when I'm allowed to feel offended.

@schepers: Magnus sees it as a bug. I really start to wonder why not a critical one ;-)

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• Nov 22, 2013 - 15:29

Jojo: "So it was not (only) about me."

Please, let others speak for themselves.

Jojo: "But rest assured, the ones I mentioned to have offended me did offend me, whether this was your intention or not."

Now you are sounding confused again. Who are the others that have offended you? Or is it my alleged offensive statements you are referring to? How can e.g. my question to Xavierjazz offend you?

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