triple augmentation dots

• Apr 23, 2011 - 14:28

They're rare, but they do occasionally occur in classical repertoire. One example comes to mind immediately (Chopin's Prelude Op. 28 No. 3), and I'm sure I could find more.


Comments

In reply to by lasconic

If these are absolutely required, you can fake it. Set the notes using ties where needed. Then make the unwanted notes and ties invisible. Finally, using the Symbols palette, add the needed additional dot(s) to the first note, spacing them manually. This should look and play back just fine.

Does anyone know of a better way?

In reply to by Bill Watkins

Bill, I haven't tested the workaround you proposed, but I did imagine something along exactly those lines -- so thanks for posting that! Actually, though, the motivation for my request was to propose incorporating functionality of extra augmentation dots into future releases of MuseScore.

Someone recently raised a comparable issue about 128th notes (semihemidemisemiquavers) -- i.e., rarely occurring but not unheard of -- and they've now been incorporated in the trunk version. That's great, and I believe that multiple augmentation dots beyond the present maximum should also be implemented in the interest of completeness and to help fulfill the goal of a full-featured program.

Thanks, too, to Lasconic for immediately citing further examples of multiple dots. I bow to your knowledge and memory!

In reply to by Bill Watkins

Yes, Musescore does actually support triple-dotted notes, but they can't be placed into a score. Here's a way to create them that I accidentally discovered:

1 - Have a 4/4 measure
2 - Place a whole note in said measure
3 - Make the measure a 15/16 measure
4 - The whole note will turn into a triple-dotted half note
5 - Copy and paste it anywhere you like

Attachment Size
Screenshot_1.png 5.63 KB

In reply to by randy.howard.1675

Rachmaninov's Moments Musicaux No. 4 has these throughout. I looked at the source and, as far as I can tell, augmentation dots are handled in a rather straightforward way between single and double. Unfortunately I could never get Qt and the like to play nicely so I wasn't able to fiddle around with the source and see if I can't add them myself, but after looking over the source for all this I don't see the triple-dot as being too much of a hassle to add, especially since the double augmentation dot already builds off of the single augmentation dot.

Looking again, it would require changes to tempotext.cpp to get the proper length. Looking at note.h, it almost appears that triple augmentation dots already have support- the MAX_DOTS value is 3, and the array that a Note has for dots is 3 long instead of the expected 2. The implementation for plugins to access the number of dots on a note simply goes through the array and checks how many of the values are actually dots. Seeing as this can be 3, it seems that that's already in place here.

Line 234 of note.h has this bit of text: "QList _dots { 0, 0, 0 };". note.cpp has this array to be used to create 3 NoteDot objects. As far as I can tell, those NoteDot objects are the actual augmentation dots.

So, going off of what I've seen in the code, the only thing really missing for triple augmentation dots is a button, some bookkeeping about what the resultant length would be of the note, making it work with the MIDI export, have it properly tracked in score.h as an element of the score, have it properly dealt with if the resultant note length would be a fraction of an available note (much how single dot and double dots are already handled in score.cpp), and... that's it. There are only 10 unique files that deal with the double augmentation dot as something different than the single augmentation dot (found by searching the repository with the keyword "dotdot"), so those would be the first places to look.

In reply to by Ispil

If you need help to compile MuseScore, read https://musescore.org/en/developers-handbook#Compilation-instructions

We can also help on IRC #musescore on freenode.net or on the developer mailing list http://dev-list.musescore.org

Adding yet another button for something that appears in a dozen of works in the history doesn't seem like a good deal... If we make it too easy to create 3 dots, then we will see 3 dotted notes flourish a little bit everywhere on the web. But that doesn't mean we can't support it via other means.

In reply to by lasconic

Well, turns out that I was an idiot regarding Qt and somehow entirely misunderstood what the Qt Creator was; now that that's resolved I could probably build Musescore with little trouble. I agree; the need for an actual proper triple-dot button might be a bit unnecessary, but there needs to be some means to access it. Extended button option? There has to be some indication that the user has selected the triple dot in the interface when they have, and the palette doesn't really seem to be the solution; after all, it doesn't even contain a single augmentation dot other than as a strictly decorative sort.

In reply to by lasconic

Right now we have two little-known commands "Q" and "W" that will take a selected note and decrease or increase its duration. Right now, those commands will never add dots - they basically move the next higher note value (starting from either a quarter or dotted quarter, pressing "W" changes to half). What I could imagine is adding a new command that does basically the same thing but uses dots, so starting from quarter note, pressing this key successively would change it to dotted quarter, then double dotted, then triple dotted, and then finally half.

In fact, the more I think about, the more I like this, as there have been occasional but very vocal requests for an "add dot" command, mostly from people accustomed to other notation programs that apparently treat augmentation dots not like duration (the way Finale and Sibelius do) but as articualtions or other markings, to be applied after entering the note rather than before.

In reply to by ericfontainejazz

Note that MuseScore supports triple and quadruple dots: but the graphical interface is unable to insert them.
To insert a triple dot in a score:
1) create a new score with a single measure;
2) insert the first note (for example, a quarter note) with a DOUBLE dot;
3) insert two notes to obtain a duration double of the first note (for example, two thirty-second notes);
4) save as Uncompressed MuseScore format (*.mscx) - for example, as "dot.mscx";
5) open "dot.mscx" with Notepad (Windows) or gedit (Linux) or similar porograms, to view and change the file as text;
6) search for "2", and change it in "3";
7) delete the 7 lines from "" to "" just AFTER the "" that follows "3";
8) save the changed file;
9) Open it In MuseScore.

Now you have a real triple dotted note, and you can copy and past it, if you need.
Similarly you can obtain a quadruple dotted note.

In reply to by JohannesBrahms

For triple dot the internal infrastucture indeed exists, just no UI for it (with the exception of a button in Inspector) For quadruple dots this does not exist, and bad things may happen if you force them your way.
And better don't use triple dots on very short notes. The shorted Duration you can use a single dot with is a 64th, the shortes for a double dot is 32nd, so the shortest for triple dot would be 16th (and for quadruple dot would be eight), just because of the remainder ending up as the shortest duration we current support.

In alpha 3.0.0, triple- and quadruple augmentation dots are available next to the double augmentation dots. That’s a convenient feature, but I can’t help but wish I could even more simply achieve that with the keyboard.

Currently, pressing the . key on a dotted note removes the dot. I honestly never did it that way: if I want a dotted quarter note to become a quarter note, I either (admittedly rarely) shift+Q it, or (more often) press 5. Obviously I am not everyone, but I would be genuinely surprised if anyone reported pressing . to remove a dot. Maybe that key could be used to add dots by repeatedly pressing it? It would be simple, efficient.

Another way of doing it on the keyboard would be with shift+W. Currently, that shortcut increases the duration to the “nearest dotted or undotted” note. Why not make it increase the duration “by a dot”? That would be really convenient, useful. Shift+Q could be used to remove a dot as well.

My 2 cents.

In reply to by froisois

The augmentation dots are in the list of shortcuts and everything from 2-4 dots can have keyboard shortcuts defined by the user. I have them for up to 3 dots. I don't remember ever needing 4 dots. As for using the variations on Q & W, I use them often since they affect the last note entered and there is no need to move the cursor to change the duration of the last note because I didn't press the dot correctly. Using the . or a number button requires that you first use the left arrow to select the note.

I don't program, but I was very active in the conversation that ended with us getting the current results from Q, W, Shift+Q and Shift+W because the the original Q and W were not working properly, that is they ignored the dot and halved or doubled the note as though there were no dot. Now Q and W take into consideration all dots and shift+Q/W (which was added during the fix) deletes or adds the equivalent of a singe dot, but treats any existing dots as a single dot.

I hope you now understand the use of dots, Q & W better.

In reply to by mike320

Thanks for your reply.

> The augmentation dots are in the list of shortcuts and everything from 2-4 dots can have keyboard shortcuts defined by the user.

That's good to know. However, given that double, triple and quadruple dots are anecdotal, I was rather looking for an obvious, “intuitive” solution, that would not imply a user-defined shortcut.

> Using the . or a number button requires that you first use the left arrow to select the note.

Only when you're correcting existing notes. Otherwise not : in input mode, 5,.,C will directly output a dotted quarter C. My point is that it would be intuitive to type e.g. 5,.,.,.,C in order to output a triply dotted quarter C. Cancelling the dots would be as simple as typing 5 again.

In reply to by froisois

Your suggestion would 1) make a totally different method for inserting multiple dots than is used with other notation 2) change the method for cancelling dots that has been in effect as long as dots have been supported. Allowing the user to define its own shortcuts is a good compromise. You are either new to MuseScore or are just deciding you need an easy way to enter multiple dots. As a result, any method you use will be new to you and you will have to get used to it. If the method for entering dots were changed, everyone who has been entering them with the current method would then need to learn the new method. If you were in charge of the program, which would you choose?

If your concern is being able to use the numerical keypad for dots, there are the / * - and several modifications on the + and even the . key that are not yet defined. I personally use the numeric - for 2 dots and ctrl+that - for three dots. I suppose if I wanted 4 dots defined I would probably use Ctrl+Shift+ that - since I'm already used to using that key for multiple dots. This makes it rare for me to ever remove my hands from the note names and numeric keypad while entering notes and I've grown quite accustomed to it after a few years. With practice, you will become accustomed to whatever method you end up using.

In reply to by froisois

Defining your own shortcut for double or triple dot would result in an even simpler way of entering them - only one key to create a triple dot, not three. So if you are among the small minority of people who use these symbols regularly, I encourage you to go ahead and do this. As mentioned, the majority of editors and experts recommend against them, which is why no shortcut is defined by default.

In reply to by froisois

> Defining your own shortcut for double or triple dot would result in an even simpler way of entering them - only one key to create a triple dot, not three. So if you are among the small minority of people who use these symbols regularly, I encourage you to go ahead and do this.

Indeed, that seems to be a convenient method if you use it regularly. Much less if you are not among that “small minority of people”: I for one had to use double augmentation dots a couple of times, and triple augmentation dots only once. Not enough in either case to decide it was worth defining a new shortcut. But I can assure you that every time I had to do it, my spontaneous way of trying to achieve it was to basically type twice ..

> You are either new to MuseScore or are just deciding you need an easy way to enter multiple dots. As a result, any method you use will be new to you and you will have to get used to it. If the method for entering dots were changed, everyone who has been entering them with the current method would then need to learn the new method.

I am not making the case for substituting the current method. I am just stating the fact that, whether new or accustomed to MuseScore, a spontaneous way of outputing two dots is to input two dots. And if you occasionnally have to output three dots, inputing three dots is the way that spontaneously comes to mind. Also, I’d like to point you that it would not be a new method, but rather an expansion of the existing one.

> If you were in charge of the program, which would you choose?

If I were in charge of the program, I would consider that idea, find it relevant and then look for a way of integrating it to the program.

> With practice, you will become accustomed to whatever method you end up using.

Oh well, git gud I suppose.

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