tuples

• Jul 27, 2016 - 05:12

Inputting a non-standard tuple via "Notes -> Tuples -> Other..." the user enters the required parameters and exits. Everything works and everyone is happy. However, the next time the user uses that same feature, the dialog box is prefilled with default values, not those previously entered by him/her. The user is forced to reenter the same parameters each time the dialog box is called.The version of MuseScore is 2.0.3.


Comments

I could see that sometimes being useful - like if you are entering a whole series of similar tuplets., But in the general case, it would seem to me that reusing the previous settings would almost never be more appropriate than the defaults. So I think in general it would probably be more work for most people if this chznge were made. That's my take, anyhow. Obviusly, if you have a score that contains a whole lot of similar non-standard tuplets, that score would be an exception.

In reply to by Nicolas

It raises the question if it is possible to introduce a way to generate more than one tuplet of this kind at once (as is is for simple tuplets)?

Otherwise copy, paste and modify is probably the fastest way to do this (in note entry mode any note already present will be overwritten, entering the pitches is as fast as with an "empty" tuplet generated from scratch).

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I have used the copy & paste technique and it works well except for those times when the message "Cannot paste into tuplet" pops up.

On the other hand, if something else is already stored in the copy buffer waiting its turn to be pasted, then copying a tuplet pattern replaces that that which is already in the buffer.

For someone who needs a different tuplet each time they access the dialog box, they would change the parameters as required. But, in the case where the composer likes to have the number and bracket illustrated for the first tuplet and then have the number and bracket invisible for succeeding ones requires less work if my suggestion were implemented.

Borrowing from Bach:

Tuplets.png

Of course, it is possible to just use the standard technique of ‘control-number’ to add a tuplet and then use the inspector to blind out the unwanted ones. But, again, that requires more work. If only the number and not the bracket is wanted, then the inspector cannot be used.

From the programming perspective, implementing the suggested change is extremely easy. We are dealing with two integers and a setting for each of two groups of radio buttons. The dialog box already passes these four values back to the calling program. It only requires that the same values be passed back into the dialog box the next time it is called through the class’ access methods. This technique is already implemented in the dialog box that handles “append measures,” though the dialog box that handles “insert measures” does not.

In reply to by Bruce A Pearce

"If only the number and not the bracket is wanted, then the inspector cannot be used."

That's not correct. You can set "Bracket type" to "Nothing" and keep "Number type" unchanged.

It is still time consuming, though. To that end, in MuseScore 3, you will be able to set the score-wide style for tuplets to never show the bracket, if that's what you want.

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

I do think what Bruce is getting at would be nice to have: Of a long string of identical commonly used tuplets only the first or the first few need to be marked as tuplets, after that it is obvious to musicians from both the grouping/beaming and the spacing of the notes. This is very commonly done in published music (indeed I have seen music where triplets were never marked as such) and it is pretty time consuming to do in Musescore (I have never been able to get it to alter more than one tuplet in one go).

It would be nice to have a feature that would simplify this in some way, though probably hard to agree on how exactly.

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

But if numbers and brackets are turned off on a score-wide basis via the inspector, how could a user then add them to the first two or three sets of tuplets in long section? As has been mentioned by others, Bach and others did this and it is a still a very common practise today.

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

There is a misunderstanding here I believe. So there are some feature of MuseScore 2.0.3.

1/ It's possible to change a single tuplet to display the number, a ratio, the bracket or nothing

2/ Inspector lets you change properties for one or more similar elements if they are selected.

3/ It's possible to select all tuplets with right click -> select similar elements and the different options there (elements in same staff, in selection etc...)

4/ When selecting a notehead, if the chord is in a tuplet, one can select the tuplet in the inspector, at the bottom, with the "tuplet" button.

Knowing this, it's easy enough to hide all the tuplets but except a few. Select a region, right click a tuplet, select similar elements in the selection, open the inspector and choose "nothing" in the combobox. If you want a tuplet to reappear, click on a note or rest in the tuplet, in the inspector at the bottom, choose tuplet and change the appropriate property.

Now, in MuseScore 3, there will also be Style properties to control the display of the number and the bracket score wide. They will work exactly the same than other style options and will be overridable like any other.

In reply to by Nicolas

Thanks for the clarification, Nicolas. That should work out quite well for those who want to suppress tuplet markings except for the first few sets.

The discussion does seem to have drifted into a general discussion of tuplets, so I'll add a question of my own here: Is there a way that tuplets with more than 9 notes could be entered directly using the keyboard shortcut? At present CTL+[# of notes] does not work for two-digit tuplets like decuplets, hendecuplets, dodecuplets, or triskaidecuplets. These 10, 11, 12, and 13-note tuplets don't come along in every score, but when writing out Baroque ornamentation in the Italian style for slow movements, they are used often enough.

multi-digit tuplets (Corelli).png

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

@Isaac
You said *I believe at this point in the development, it is impossible to set the style to never show numbers or brackets and also use the Inspector to show the numbers and brackets for an individual tuplet.*

I understood that if you set the style to display "nothing" for numbers then you cannot override this for a given tuplet. In fact, I just tried and it works. So there is no bug here or I didn't understand what you meant.

In reply to by Nicolas

If the goal is to:

- In Format > General Style... > Tuplets, set "Number type" and "Bracket type" both to "Nothing," and
- With the Inspector, set any individual tuplet to display its bracket and number,

I don't think there is any way to do that.

- If you set the style first, then you have no way to get a tuplet's properties into the Inspector, as there is nothing to select.

- If you try to set the tuplet's properties first before changing the style, the "Number type" and "Bracket type" in the Inspector are already set to "Automatic" in reflection of the style, and you can't change them to what they already are. That sounds weird, but try it.

What's needed is either:

- Add a button to the Inspector that changes the selection to the tuplet when you have a note selected, or
- Tweak the Inspector-style relationship again so that you can set a property to the same thing that it already is and make it stay that way when you update the style.

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

If you set the style first, then you have no way to get a tuplet's properties into the Inspector, as there is nothing to select.
Of course, there is. As explained earlier, click on a note from the tuplet, open the inspector and at the bottom choose tuplet, then change the property of the tuplet.

In reply to by Nicolas

You are right, lasconic. I just tried it.

But I think I know roughly why I failed: I had already started manually to show some numbers and not others. Doing ctrl/click and select similar elements I got everything highlighted, but the link to "edit element" was grayed out. It seems that if not all elements are at the same status (some on, some off) this is what happens.

The inspector was too new back then for me to succeed. When I tried now the setting was "off" (for numbers and brackets). I had to turn it on and off again to have all triplets "unified". Now I can go and switch a handful back to "on".

And may I say about the inspector: That tuplet button is rather time consuming, especially as the inspector window is so large it needs to be scrolled to find the button. Couldn't the buttons (there are three) be on the top?

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Re: "Create Tuplet" window values resetting to default.

The default values in the custom tuplet window (in 3.0) appear to be the same as ctrl-3. Which is to say, few, if any, folks will be going all the way to the "Create Tuplet" window only to use it with its default values.

However, when trying to get a large tuplet entered correctly, it may take two, three, or more tries to get the desired result. By not having the last values re-populate the fields, it takes a bit longer to tweak the tuplet to the right parameters. Each time I've had to enter a larger-than-9 tuplet, it's taken multiple attempts: Some times because I filled out the numbers wrong, but other times because I had not selected the right value note before starting to define the tuplet. Since creating large tuplets seems to be very much a trial-and-error process, it would be very helpful to have the last values repopulated.

How helpful? Well, I had to resort to using pen and paper to keep track of what settings I'd already used for the tuplet used in Hungarian Rhapsody #2.

Attachment Size
Hungarian_Rapsody_No._2.pdf 178.59 KB

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