Can syllable extension only be done with underlines?

• Dec 6, 2012 - 23:28

For example I have a syllable I want to put across two 16th notes and it would look a lot better if the syllable would just be situated in the middle of the two rather than having a short underline because the problem is that there is an other syllable after that one and the underline has no dash on top of it to signify the continuation of the word.



Can you post an example of what you are talking about? I'm having trouble picturing it. You mention an extender, but you also mention a continuation dash. Normally, one would use only one or the other - an extender for the last syllable of a word, an extender dash for interior syllables,

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Fwiw, the one on the right looks much better to me than the one on the left. I wasn't aware there was any official rule about which syllables should be left aligned versus which should be centered, but even if there is, it strikes me as much less important than showing the extenders and dashes correctly, and the example at left does not. S it corrects an insignificant problem by introducing a much more serious one.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

I'm curious - is there some sort of standard on alignment you have in mind that informs your preference for which syllables should be left aligned and which should be centered? Does Gould cover this in Behind Bars? Looking at the published scores I have accessed to, centered syllables seems the norm in for most publishers in most situations. In many scores, the only places I see left aligned syllables are places where the editor clearly shifted things manually to save a little space here and there on an ad hoc basis (syllables placed under each eighth note in a tightly-space manuscript). There are other publishers who seem to use a standard that says single words should be left aligned, but hyphenated words should have their syllables centered. Other publishers seem to use a standard that says to left-align short words or syllables (1-3 letters), center longers ones. But if there is one overriding standard that forms a strong argument as to how MuseScore should behave by default, I'm not seeing it.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm trying to achieve here.

I am only talking about cases where one has subsequent short notes across which only one syllable is to be sung. I'll try to create an example for you to see this more clearly.

I definitely do NOT want to change the behavior for everything else, it's all fine, it's just the cases where you have passages of very short subsequent notes across which only one syllable is to be sung.

In some cases it's not so useful to use the underlining method as there is no space for it to be seen and it is more readable if a syllable would be in the middle of two such subsequent short notes.

In reply to by tonyjustme

I think I do understand what you are trying to do, although no doubt, an example could help clarify. But still, look at how you described this - "just the cases where you have passages of very short subsequent notes". If you are MuseScore somehow automatically detect this situation, how would you propose it define "very short subsequent notes"? How many notes would quality? If it's only one notes, I could see there not being space for the extender or hyphen. If it's 10, there should be plenty of room. What about 3? What if the syllables is only one letter long - wouldn't there be room in those cases?

That's what I mean about this being incredibly ad hoc. There is no no way to define a rule that says, "whenever situation X occurs, the correct/desired behavior is Y". It cannot possiubly be anything but a human editor eyeballing the situation and saying, "in this *particular* situation, I think it will make the most sense to do Y".

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

What if you have multiple syllables you want to extend inside a sequence of 10 short notes like 32nd notes? figure that one out.

That is why I never asked for an "automated" feature or plugin for this, but rather asked for a feature that would snap the syllable symmetrically in the middle of a range of selected notes, whether they be 2, 3 or 4 or so on.

And of course it's a human editor, but the current workaround for this is extremely tedious and takes a painstaking amount of time.

Just have a look at the promo videos of Sibelius 7 and see how many of their notation marks snap into position where required so that creators of scores don't have to do all of this manual sculpting by themselves.

Now, I'm not asking for it to be done automatically like in Sibelius but a key sequence that snaps things in the middle of a range of notes would be nice.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Oh yes, and when I'm writing a complete SATB score, that takes such little time to do...

Not to mention alignment problems...

Why do you think I started this thread in the first place, of course I knew about that.

It's not just one word I need to move along here, it's a whole host of words.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

It's just annoying how people don't get things in here.

I don't care about doing the thing with the cursor key, do you have any idea how long it takes for a full SATB score???

There should be a key combination to automatically put a syllable between two notes symmetrically in the middle.

The problem with doing that manually is that it will always be different and it will take painstakingly long to do.

In reply to by tonyjustme

Whether you care or not: there are other readers too, which might not be aware of that possibilty and might benift from seeing it here
In your original post there was no mention of a full SATB score and many such changes and we're not mind readers.

As to your problem: Create an RFE in the issue tracker for this and ideally come up with a proposed code change and a pull request

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

Yes I will eventually do that, I just wanted to talk about it here first so I don't get flamed for putting it in the bug tracker in the first place.

I am usually very straightforward about my issues and never use the Forums, I just go ahead and post stuff in the bug tracker because I know what I'm talking about, but with this one I just knew people would flame me, as they've previously done.

In reply to by tonyjustme

Tony, before you post an issue in the tracker.

Please will you check this behaviour in the nightlies?

Lyric placement is an area which definitely needs tightening up on in MuseScore, and I too sometimes get highly frustrated with it.

I do believe, however, that there are improvements on this in MuseScore 2.0

So please will you check before posting an issue.


In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

The thing is I wanted to inquire about this across the table, not just in the nightlies, because I don't know all the differences between the stable 1.2 version and the nightlies, I don't have time to read full changelogs.

If somebody would like to ask me exactly what version I'm currently using, they should feel free to do so, or just browse through any other of my recent threads.

In reply to by tonyjustme

"And where exactly did I say I'm not using nightlies?"

It is implied by the fact that you are posting in Support and Bug Reports and not in Technology Preview which is where problems with nightly builds are supposed to be discussed.

Unless you specify the version you are using it will be assumed you are using the latest stable version (1.2) if you post here.

In reply to by tonyjustme

There should be options to do things automatically if they are things that lots of people do and/or are recognized typographical standards. Putting a lyrics between notes is to my kinowledge simply never done in the publishing industry. That is, as far as I know know, it is extremely non-standard behavior. So I am not understanding why you wish to create these non-standard scores. If there is some sort of reason backed up by standard practice, then yes, I'd agree there should be a way to get that behavior automatically. But as it is, it seems like you are asking for an option to automsatically create incorrect notation. Creating incorrect notation should be possible - but it should require manual intervention.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

The problem is that I've had issues with using the underlining process as you can see in my screenshot, but I no longer have the score to share it with you as a bug.

Notice how the underlining is way under the staff, not even close to where it should be, and to tell you the truth, I don't really like the underlining method as it is, but I have seen syllables put in the middle of two notes preceded and followed by dashes and the correct interpretation was the singing of the syllable across both notes.

In some cases, such as 32nd notes, one really needs to be able to do that because you don't have enough space for the underlining due to the size of the syllable and it's much more sensible to have the syllable in the middle of 4 32nd notes.

(Personal copyrighted material has been removed from the screenshot)

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In reply to by tonyjustme

Yes, there was a bug in vertical placement of extenders at one point in the nightlies.

And yes, I agree there are sometimes exceptional cases where for spacing reasons you might choose to break ordinary typographical conventions and use some sort of ad hoc, non-standard workaround to position the syllables. But I can't see how one could expect MuseScore to detect these rare situations for you and automtically choose which ad hoc non-standard workaround you wish to employ. Some editors would add space between the notes, others would shift the syllables left and right to make room, others would skip the hyphens and/or extenders - there are lots of ad hoc non-standard methods one could employ to deal with these unusual situations. And MuseScore allows you to do all of them. I( really don't see a good opportunity for anything to be automatically here. Only if there was some sort of clearly defined "correct" behavior, which I think the publ;ished sliterature shows quite plainly there isn't - it is just lots of ad hoc non-standard solutions chosen nby the editor on a case-by-case basis.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Where exactly did I say I want this to be done automatically???

What you didn't understand from what I replied is the fact that manually moving each and every single word to the middle of two notes with the mouse or keys takes painstakingly long, I'm sure a better command key combination could be implemented, but I never asked for this to be done for me automatically, I just asked for a better key combination to do that, like shift-ctrl-space something.

I think you're mixing up my posts man.

In reply to by tonyjustme

English is my first language, but I am not *still* entirely sure what you are talking about here - or to be more specific, I am not sure you are understanding us. As we have been trying to explain, there already *is* a manual combination keys that shifts the syllables in whatever direction you want - they are called cursor keys. They work just fine in 1.2. They are currently disabled for this purpose in the nightlies, but I am hopeful that this feature will be added back, and I am still assuming this will completel;y and 100% address this issue. Yes, manual adjustment needs to be possible and simple. It is in 1.2, it currently is less so in the nightlies but hopefully will be fixed before release.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Yes, but using that method one has to subsequently hit the cursor keys in order to get the syllable in the desired position whereas a method of automatically snapping the syllable in the middle of a desired range of keys by manually hitting a key combination would do the job for you and would save time.

Now do you see the difference?

I knew about the cursor key method but didn't even bother to try it. (this time)

In reply to by tonyjustme

You were objecting to having to do it with the cursor keys - that is, you are rejecting doing it manually. Are you saying there is some sort of middle ground between manual and automatic you wish MuseScore to implement? I don't understand how you could say cursor keys take "painstakingly long" - it's a fraction of a second, no? - but that somehow shift-ctrl-space would be faster. Except that, of course, in the current nighlties - unlike the actual released version - the cursors don't work *at all*. I know there has been some back and forth on this, with some people prefering cursors to work to navigate syllables, others prefering they do the nudge. I'm assuming the current situation isn't permanent, and that a way to nudge with the cursors will be restored (perhaps ctrl-cursor or some such) - in other words, it will work as well as does in the current released version. In which case, then it sounds like that would meet your requirements?

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

OMG you're so off on this again, is it because English is not your first language?

Of course I want to do it manually but there are slower and faster ways of doing things manually.

And no, it's not a fraction of a second in a 20 page SATB score with numberless occurrences of such cases.

I'm talking about a command comprising of a sequence of keys that will snap my syllable in the middle of a selected range of notes.

That is a lot faster than having to subsequently hit the cursor keys until the syllable goes to the middle of the range of notes I want it to go.

Do you now understand what I'm trying to communicate here?

In reply to by tonyjustme

Again, English is my first language, but you have not been explainging yourself clearly. It now appears for for the very time that you are proposing a command that would operate *on a group of dselected notes* (eg, not while in lyric entry mode) and center any syllable (or syllable*s*, presumably) to the center of that selected range. You've never suggested such a thing befoire, so no wonder we couldn't guess that this was what you had in mind.

Yes, I could see this very occasionally being useful. But I think you greatly overstate how often this comes in real music as published by real published. Can you link to any published 20 page SATB scores and show how often this occurs?

And I guess I still don't see how this would help that much. If it's only two notes - as the example you described elsewhere implies is your main concert - it takes all of about two presses of the cursor key to shift the syllable between the two notes, and you never have to leave note entry mode to do it. How is this harder than leaving note entry mode, selecting the two notes, hitting some key combination to center the lyrics, then re-entering lyric mode to continue working?

And for passages of longer than two notes - where indeed, using the cursor is not ideal - there is still a far easier way to get the desired results. Rather than enter the syllable on the first note of the passage - not the note you want it to appear under - then leave lyric mode, select a region, and issue a command to move the syllable to the right note, why not simply enter the lyric directly on the note you want it to fall under (and then use the cursor keys to fine tune if necessary from there)?

Perhaps an actual example *would* help.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I never said this feature shouldn't be available in lyric entering mode.

I have wasted way to much time today here.

And I assure you it would really come in handy in case of classical choir scores with soloists. Do your own homework before asking for scores, think of cadences and so on so forth.

And it's not only 2 notes, I have cases of 4 5 and even more.

And I don't want to enter the lyric directly onto the note because it would not be in the middle of the range of notes (whether they be 2 3 4 5 6) that I want it to be.

In reply to by tonyjustme

Well, should you ever wish to post a *clear* and *concise* description of exactly what you want - with an example showing what look you wish to achieve, how you propose achieving that look, and how you think this would be easier than the existing methods I have described, that would be helpful. As I attempted to explain, in cases where it is two notes, there is an easy method in 1.2 - simply hit the cursor once or twice. And in case of many notes, there is also an easier method - simply enter the syllable on closest syllable in the first place, then cursor to fine tune, rather than entering it on the wrong syllable then issuing a command to move it.

If you have some other use case in mind, again, an actual example with clear description would be necessary in order for other to understand.

And I have access to literally thousands of scores, and I do not see what you are talking more than once every ferw pages or so. If you know of music published by a knowledgable publisher that contains an unusually high number of these cases, feel free to post it, but I *have* done my homework. I have woirked professioinally as an editor for a major publisher and do know a thing or two about this subject. Plus I am consulted dozens more scores during the course of the discussions of the past couple of days in an attempt to understand where people may be coming from. So again, if you have *spewcific* information you'd like to share to help make a case, please do so.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Here's an example in case it's hard to picture this, I can't share screenshots due to copyrighted material which is why I always set up hypothetical instances.

No you tell me if someone's going to notice that that is an underline and not a dot.

And I just started working on this score, it's going to be a lot bigger and with a lot more voices.

And this is just a measly example I'm sharing I have a lot bigger ones that I don't want to share due to copyright.

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In reply to by tonyjustme

Fair use allows for posting excerpts from real examples for purposes like this; no reason to worry about copyright.

But in any case, again, I have absolutely no trouble understanding that there exist cases where you want to do center one syllable over a range of notes. What isn't clear is how such a case could occur that isn't saolved quickly and simply using one of the two methods I described. Certainly, the case you show above would bve solved with one or two presses of the right cursor key, just as I said ()in 1.2 - again, this is currently not working in the nightlies). It's trhe cases *not* easily solvable with minor adjustments like that - or by simply entering the syllable under the closest syllable - that I am having trouble picturing.

Btw, in cases like yous above, if that really is something that occurs often in the score - that is, there are really lots of thirty-second notes - I think you'd find most publishers would simply space the measures out more so thirty-second notes aren't so close together. But also, very little publ;ished vocal music actually uses thirty-second notes in that way. Which again is why I am saying I think this type of situation is more rare than you are suggesting.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I freakin' don't care about publishers today I'm talking about hard core classical music here with lots of cadences.

Think baroque as well.

This situation is what I am encountering on a daily basis, and if MuseScore can not convey a usable method for me to deal with this problem, I will just flippin' buy Sibelius and be done with this buggy project.

In reply to by tonyjustme

I am talking about classical music as well. As I have already explained, I consulted many existing scores to gain an understanding of the rules generally followed by publishers - both modern and ancient. And as I have already explained, *there does not appear to be any general rule* for how these things are done. The *vast majority* of cases I could find where some sort of adjustment was required would be *easily* handled using one of the methods I described (entering the syllable under the closest note if note the first, one or two presses of the cursor to slide the lyric between syllables). Plus of course most publisher would use appropriate spacing so this issue wouldn't arise all that often.

So again, if you have specific examples you can show where the very simple method I described is not sufficient and where this new method you have yet to completely describe would be preferable, and can show that this would come up more than once every few pages or so and hence be worth the trouble to implement, go for it.

As for being "buggy", note that you are the one attempting to use the nightly builds despite the obvious warnings that they are unstable. If you want stability, use 1.2. It's all well and good to use the nightly and report issues, but you can hardly expect nightly builds not to be buggy. The same is true of Sibelius or any other application - it's just that you nomally don't get to ever see nightly builds for anything but open source programs.

But indeed, Sibelius is a very good program, and if suits your needs better than the stable version of MuseScore - by a large enough margin to make it worth the cost - then go for it!

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Now just think of a cadence like that with cases like those multiplying, how on earth am I going to be able to convey the information I want to?

Think 32nd note trills and even 64th notes in chains due to intricate passages spanned across several syllables that are to be sung across different ranges of notes with some syllables covering two notes, others covering three notes other four and so on so forth and with syllables of varying sizes.

I hope now it's clear enough to you.

In reply to by tonyjustme

I have absolutely no idea how the issue you just posted a few moments ago that consists of a single screen shot and no explanatory text whatsoever tells me I "haven't done any of my homework". All I can see is that it simply repeats what we all already know - that there exist cases where syllables can be too close together and might need manual adjustment. And there are perfectly good known solutions to this problem. If you are proposing an additional solution be made available, again, *please provide a simple clear explanation fo what you want, and why you think it would be superior to what is already provided*. But again, I don't see how that relates to whether or not I've "done any of my homework".

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

First of all: what you see in the screenshot should not be happening at all, period

Second of all: there should be a usable non-time-wasting method to deal with placing syllables in the middle of two notes.

Third of all: you haven't done your homework because you haven't tried any of the above explained scenarios otherwise you would have run into this issue yourself.

In reply to by tonyjustme

As I pointed out in my response to that issue, you appear to be trying to enter something that is rather bizarre and contrary to ordinary typographical conventions - an underscore between syllables of a single word. Combined with a syllable you are apparently trying to place on a note that is not sung. So indeed, I have never tried that, because it is musical nonsense.

Second, the bug you are seeing apparently only started showing up sometimes in the last few days, because it doesn't work that in the build I have.

Third, this discussion is in the support & bug reports forum, not the tehcnology preview forum, and as such the context is assumed to be the released version, not any particular experimental build of a future version. Yes, I realize you have now clarified you are only talking about nightlies, but that wasn't clear when the discussion started. But beyond that, see point #1 above - even had I realized you were talking only about a very specific nightly build that has developed a new bug, if that bug only occurs if you try certain combinations of invalid input, how on earth should I hgave been expected to anticipate that?

And fourth - again, there *is* a very simple and non-time-wasting of moving a syllable between two notes. It just happens to be disabled in the current nightlies. As I've pointed out over and over, assumign that feature (which is present in 1.2) gets added back, this should be 100% completely fixed without the neewd to add any new features that be useful only in these rare situations and in any event as far as I could tell would require *more* (not fewer) keystrokes. Although, again, if you care to describe a *specific* proposal for how you imagine this featuree working, and show a case where it would actually tsake fewer keystrokes, and can then show that this would actually occur more than rarely, feel free.

Consider having 4 32nd notes and wanting to have two syllables sung across the first and second and then the third and forth note.

If your score is big, your underline will end up looking like a dot and will fail to convey the needed information.

I think that's good enough proof, especially in huge SATB scores where sopranos have trills and so on so forth with a huge chain of notes over which they have syllables spread like crazy. I'm talking classical music here.

The underlining will end up looking like puny dots and the interpreter will think the phrase ends there instead of understanding that the syllable is to be sung across the desired notes.

In reply to by tonyjustme

Yes, I agree that's a situation where some sort of ad hoc manual adjustment is necessary. I'm stiull just not understanding what you want MuseScore to do that's different from what it already does in the released version (1.2) - allow the cursor key to nudge the syllable left or right immediately upon typing it. As I observed above, this behavior is currently broken in the nightlies, but assuming that gets fixed, that's the end of the story, right? All you are really needing is the restoration of the ability to nudge lyrics using the cursors, right?

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