Dots before lyric

• Aug 26, 2013 - 23:39

1. Open attached score (produced in 1.3).

Question: Am I able to achieve what is in this image in 2.0?:
Dots before lyric.png

Attachment Size
Dots before lyric.mscz 1.67 KB
Dots before lyric.png 25.25 KB


Thanks Shoichi.

I wondered though, could there be a slightly more automatic way (in terms of management) of achieving it? Maybe an 'align by excluding dots' function or something for better precision.

In reply to by chen lung

This seems again to be an extremely special case sitaution. It is not to my lnowledge some sort of standard rule of notation that leading dots in lyrics should be ignored im spacing. That's just a choice made by this particular editor. This is just one example of a more general problem - how to adjust the horizontal position of a lyric. As long as the general problem is solved, then that solution can be used there or in any of the manyother cases where you want to override default horizontal positioning. My understanding is that the mechanism for nudging things left and right is still perhaps in flux, but that one way or another, it will end up being possible.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Marc, Actually it is normal practice to ignore punctuation when centering lyric syllables. By default Finale ignores the following punctuation:

For a current publication that includes some French, Spanish, and other non-English lyrics, I'm using the following list of punctuation to ignore:
,.?¿!¡;:'"‘’“”‚„‹›«»–— *†‡

If we implement this in MuseScore, we should also add the elision mark, that chenlung mentioned above.

Some observations of the images:

The final word in a lyric with spaces is centred (Instruction 3) or left-aligned (Instruction 2). This likely includes 'Dots before lyric', as I think there's spaces after each dot.

Quoted and bracketed lyrics: Notehead starts half a letter into the first lyric - for the final notehead, it ends on the second last letter. Anything in-between is centred. Apostrophes are exempt (what about full stops, commas and exclamation marks, etc?). (Apostrophe in lyrics 1 and 2)

For Instruction 2, the bracket ends before the end of the last bar (also in Instruction 4, but goes over slightly).

For Instruction 4, the both parts of the lyric could be one word (on account of the second part being left-aligned), but the second note doesn't space out. Not sure how this is, or should be processed.

Instruction 4.png

Some of all this may contradict David's wishes.

Attachment Size
Instruction 4.png 14.87 KB

In reply to by chen lung

By "instruction 4" do you mean the word "shake"?

In general lyrics should avoid respacing the notes if possible. Often this means not centering the lyric exactly, but just getting a part of the word under the corresponding note. In this example "shake" is not centered because doing so would require adding extra space to the notes above.

In reply to by chen lung

I am not sure what is being talked about here. Currently, lyrics most definitely respace notes, just as they should. Type in a few sixteenths, attach a ten letter word to each, and watch the notes respace as you go. This is normal and desirable if there's just no way to fit the syllables in otherwise. However, in certain cases where it is close to fitting except for one or two syllables here or there, then indeed, some editors will choose to try to fit the syllables in by fudging the alignment of the syllables rather than adding space. In my experience this is an entirely subjective and thus non-automatable process. But I would observe that a common convention is that when you must respace around a single note to fit a lyric, you must respace that entire measure, or that entire line, to avoid irregular spacing.

In reply to by chen lung

How about the user inputs this directional notation differently? They're not exactly lyrics, anyway. Using the Lyric Verse element, after correcting the position a bit and applying some formatting, you can get some pretty good results.

Published music:


EDIT: One thing I noticed, however, is that the affected lyrics become left-aligned. In this example, I attached two Lyric Verse elements: one to 'please' and one to 'go' (I manually adjusted 'please' to be in the right place.) I would like to use Lyric Verse elements in this way without the left-align side effect, as having the text anchored to lyric elements is advantageous (if they were working properly...see #24054: Lyrics verse number incorrectly positioned)

Attachment Size
firsttime.png 104.11 KB
lyric-directions.png 248.21 KB

Specifically about punctuation (rather than the word - see this ):

I recently came across an issue filed at LilyPond.

So far, my thinking is, only the alphanumeric section of a lyric (in the square) should be centred, regardless of punctuation in between (the apostrophe, in this case):
Centring alphanumeric section of lyric.png

I would agree that this should probably be customisable (at local level?), as the issue at LilyPond suggests - particularly for punctuation outside of such a section, anyway.

One example is how an apostrophe can be represented:

1. An omission of letter(s): They could be considered part of the word, and may merit being centred. I'm unsure though - opinions? There is one example , but I don't know about its reliability.

2. A title, or quote: Only centre the alphanumeric content (example ).

In reply to by chen lung

I think any punctuation on the outside of a word is usually ignored when it comes to centering. At least that is how Finale centers lyrics. With scores created by hand the centering is not as exact as a computer. Also the default for Finale doesn't include curly apostrophes so if the notesetter decides to use curly apostrophes in Finale they often know to edit the list of punctuation too.

A suggested list of punctuation to ignore is listed above . People may want to add to that list based on punctuation unique to their language or something we just missed (such as an ellipsis…).

In reply to by chen lung

Right now, we ignore *leading* but not *traling* punctuation. Modifying the code to ignore trailing punctuation as well should be pretty straightforward, I think. But trying to differentiate all the special cases possible is out of the question, as is developing some sort of interface that allowed you to select which "part" of the text to center (consider, for example, what should happen if you edit the lyric later). This is the sort of thing manual adjustment was invented for, and it works perfectly well. If you need to tweak things a couple of pixels left or right if you later change font or whatever, so be it.

So the task is not to define all the possible special cases and heuristics for handling them, but what general rule would be best to follow by default to use as a basis for further manual adjustment.

I don't think I know of special cases, so I would be happy to just ignore all punctuation outside a word and not have the complete interface.

How about this: An 'Ignore punctuation when aligning lyric' option that is ticked by default in 'Inspector'. If unticked, the entire lyric is centred and adjustments can be made.

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